March 11, 2025
59-Domestic Violence AUTHOR and WARRIOR: Emma Jean Rowin; Part 1
Emma Jean Rowin survived an abusive marriage that culminated in her ex-husband becoming an active shooter. Her powerful memoir "When Things Collapse" chronicles this journey, but more importantly, reveals the subtle pathway that led her there - the very pathway many dismiss with "I would never stay in an abusive relationship."
Through reading passages from her book, Emma Jean transports us to her college years when the relationship began. We witness the seemingly small moments that were actually major warning signs: a boyfriend who breaks up with her repeatedly as punishment for minor disagreements, who throws a full drink at her friend over a harmless joke, who creates emotional chaos that somehow felt like passion to a young woman whose own parents modeled a passionless marriage.
What makes this conversation particularly insightful is the exploration of why smart, capable people remain in toxic relationships. Both Emma Jean and host Ingrid reflect on how their family backgrounds created blind spots, how the intense chemistry masked manipulation, and how the absence of relationship education in the 1990s left them navigating dangerous waters without a map. They unpack the psychology behind staying - how victims absorb blame, make excuses, and gradually accept increasingly problematic behavior as normal.
For anyone who has ever judged someone for not leaving, this episode provides crucial perspective. For those currently questioning their own relationships, it offers validation and recognition. And for everyone else, it serves as a reminder that abuse doesn't announce itself with violence - it sneaks in through charm, intensity, and moments of connection that make the red flags easier to dismiss.
The conversation beautifully illustrates how modern awareness around mental health and relationship dynamics provides tools previous generations lacked, while acknowledging there's still much work to be done in educating young people about healthy relationships. Listen as Emma Jean shares her story with courage and clarity, reminding us that understanding how people enter these relationships is the first step toward helping them find their way out.
Emma Jean’s 1in3 profile: https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/emma-jean-rowin/
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
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Thank you for listening and please remember to rate, review & subscribe!
Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Chapters
00:00 - Welcome to 1 in 3
01:22 - Emma Jean Reads from "When Things Collapse"
13:47 - Red Flags vs. Normal Relationship Behavior
19:51 - Searching for Intensity After Loveless Examples
24:39 - The Psychology Behind Staying
29:38 - Modern Awareness and Moving Forward
Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hi Warriors, welcome to 1 in 3.
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I'm your host, ingrid.
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A comment I hear far too often is I would never be or stay in an abusive relationship, and while I truly hope that's the case, the reality is far more complex.
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Today, author Emma Jean Rowan reads a portion from her book when Things Collapse, followed by a discussion about the red flags we personally missed along the way.
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We also offer advice on how to spot the behaviors that should make you run, because recognizing those signs early can make all the difference.
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So let's dive in.
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Here's Emma Jean.
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Hi, emma Jean, welcome to One in Three.
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Thank you so much for joining me today.
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Hi thank you for having me.
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Okay, so you wrote a book titled when Things Collapse.
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Do you mind just giving a brief background before we get into what we want to talk about today?
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Sure, I'm Emma Jean Rowan and, as you said, I'm the author of when Things Collapse.
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Jean Rowan, and, as you said, I'm the author of when Things Collapse, 15 years ago, I took my two children and I left an abusive marriage, and during the 15 years that followed, I focused all my attention on rebuilding my life for my kids, making sure they were okay, making sure they were able to thrive the same as other children, and really just grappling my way through dealing with what I had exposed them to.
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Recently, though, I became an empty nester when my children went to college and I started to finally have the space to think about myself and what I had endured in my own experience in the abuse of marriage, and the story from there just poured from within me.
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My story starts in 2014, when I was grocery shopping with my kids and I got a call that my estranged ex-husband had become an active shooter, and from there I'm forced in the story to confront the truth of my past how I got into the relationship, the way that my husband changed from this idyllic partner spiraling into a doomsday prepper and an abusive spouse, and my journey to try to save my kids from that.
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And the book is very well written.
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I like how you go from present tense of what's happening and then you do a flashback as to how you got into the relationship.
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And I think that's really important in in these situations of domestic violence is to understand how anybody can end up in a relationship like this, and then what you do once you're in it and how you get out, and I love how you go through each of those steps and that's what we're going to do today.
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Right, you're going to take us through those steps.
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Yes, yes Thank you.
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So, yes, and I wrote it that way because I do think it's important to go backwards in time.
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When you look at an abusive situation, you may know a person who's going through abuse and you may have that part of the story.
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But I think if you go way back in time, there are a lot of things that you can draw ties to that.
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Maybe this led the person to accept this, or this piece of their childhood made them open to putting up with this kind of thing and maybe putting up is not the right terminology but allowed them to be comfortable with something that maybe other people wouldn't be comfortable with.
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And so I really want to talk today about the way into the relationship for me, the way out of the relationship for me, and then the aftermath, the way through all of the trauma afterwards.
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:34.746
And that's fantastic.
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And I think it's really important too, because a lot of people will look at these relationships and say you know, if somebody hit me, I would never put up with that, I would be out of that relationship in a heartbeat.
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And the thing is it doesn't start with somebody just hit you.
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There's a very insidious process to get to that point.
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That's right.
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And one thing I say a lot in those circumstances, when I hear someone else maybe be judgmental of someone who has endured abuse and why didn't they leave is it doesn't feel the same from the inside, that it feels to look at it from the outside, because you have all that context.
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So I like to think of it this way If you read in the paper that someone has a DUI and you see their name and you see the street they were driving on and the time they were pulled over and that they you know they were above the legal limit, then in your mind you have those facts and you say that person is a drunk driver and they're a bad person and maybe they're a drunk or something, and you cast a judgment based on those things.
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Whereas, let's say, I have a friend who calls me and says oh my gosh, last night I had one too many and I thought I was okay to drive and I luckily made it home, but I think I had had too many and I really need to watch that.
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With all of that context, I'm not judging that person right and we have forgiveness for people who we know.
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We give grace to people we know An abusive relationship is much the same.
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You have all of this wonderful history with the person and it gives you the space to give them grace.
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But for those of us who stay in these relationships, maybe there is a reason that we for some reason gave them more grace relationships.
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Maybe there is a reason that we for some reason gave them more grace, or maybe maybe there's a little bit of brainwashing or we're in the haze of survival mode.
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It's it's much more complicated than the black and white of it.
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I completely agree.
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So so take us there.
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Take us to how you got in it, okay, I'm going to read a passage from early in the book, and this is a scene I'm setting up where I have just begun.
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To date, alec Maybe I'm a few months in, so this is chapter three.
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Despite his enamored treatment of me, alec reveals an easily tripped trigger.
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Three times in the first four months of our relationship he abruptly breaks up with me over very minor disagreements Once over a bartender giving me a free beer after botching another person's order.
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Once when we disagree about the theme of Casablanca during our Best Picture movie marathon phase and another time after what Dee and I later refer to as the night of the Coke grenade.
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The Coke grenade occurs on an unseasonably warm night in October.
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Walking home from a party at the 4th Street, sigma Chi House, dee, alec and I stop at Hardee's for a late night snack.
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It's a long walk through the hills of town and when the Monster Burger calls you answer.
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As the three of us trudge from our meal, sluggish and intoxicated in the heat, dee asks me if I've ever heard of the new nickname Alec has earned with the sorority girls in her house.
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No, tell me.
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I demand.
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Can I tell her?
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Holt?
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She asks.
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He grins I don't want to be embarrassed.
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Oh, come on, you have to tell me now.
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I say jostling Dee by her shoulders, she obliges.
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Instead of Holtman, she says they call him Hottie man Dee and I stop in our tracks, doubled over in laughter.
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Hottie man, we point at Alec, cackling Alec holds up both hands, attempting to put a good-humored halt to our mockery.
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Oh, holt Dee says, don't be embarrassed, they call me Dirty Dee after all, and it's better than what I would nickname you Dolt man.
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I snort and Alex's grin suddenly melts as he pans slowly from me to Dee and, without hesitation, hurls his extra large, full plastic Hardee's cup at Dee with all his force.
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It hits her like a shot to her torso from just a few feet away, saturating her white crop top and khaki miniskirt and leaving a rosy cup-sized sting mark on her exposed stomach.
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Dee looks down at herself in astonishment, brown cola dripping like muddy raindrops from her hair, chin and fingers.
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Holt, what the hell?
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Alex stands expressionless and unaffected.
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Don't make fun of my name ever again, he says in a subdued, matter-of-fact tone.
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I close my mouth, realizing it's been a gape this whole time.
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Alec, you can't do that.
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I'm so sorry, dee.
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I grovel as I squat down, attempting to wipe her legs with my bare hands.
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Dee lays hands on both my shoulders, forming a two-person crouched huddle with me.
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It's okay, babe, she whispers, her eyelashes beaded with brown droplets.
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He's drunk, just go home.
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I'm okay, I promise.
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She says earnestly, but with a side of pity.
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My face flushes with humiliation.
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I can't believe he did this.
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Are you sure you're okay, I ask.
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She nods, giving me a quick squeeze before we part ways.
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She heads up the hill to her apartment complex I forgive you, holt, she yells from a distance when she is nearly out of sight.
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Alec and I walk home in quiet tension the rest of the way to my apartment where we are set to hole up and watch the deer hunter.
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Tonight, I hold my shoulders stiffly in protest as we stride, careful not to let my hand brush his.
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As I move, I feel humiliated and I can taste the disappointment in my fixed jaw.
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As we approach my front door, he stops in his tracks, announcing casually I'm heading home.
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Oh really why?
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I ask in a petulant tone, rolling my eyes.
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Because I don't have time for this bullshit and this is a good time in my life to be single.
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He says, pursing his lips, not meeting my eyes.
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Because I don't have time for this bullshit and this is a good time in my life to be single.
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He says, pursing his lips, not meeting my eyes.
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Are you kidding me?
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This breakup shit again.
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I yell in outrage.
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My gut is on fire.
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I've had it with his impulsive reactions to any disagreement between us.
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He stands silent and smug and then turns striding away from me up the walk as casually as if he were heading out to retrieve the mail.
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Try not to throw anything at anyone on your way home.
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I yell as he disappears around the corner.
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Like our previous breakups, the action is swift and unexpected, and Alex's reticence to stick with it over the next few days is revealed through a total halt in all communication.
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This time I resolved to make him come crawling back to me, so Dee and I avoid the evening keg parties the entire weekend, staying in at the Sigma Kappa house with wine and Biore strips instead.
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But eventually an impossible to miss invitation to see Jesse's band at the 12th street house lures us out and we make our way there, knowing a run-in with Alec is inevitable and just like a record that has started to skip.
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The moment Alec and I lock eyes, dress purposely in our most irresistible outfits.
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The needle is set right again and our song plays on.
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That is so.
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It just goes to show that their behavior isn't necessarily tolerated right off the bat, that there is a point where the victim will try to correct their behavior or point out that something is inappropriate.
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Yes, but then that also shows that he's already using those tactics of okay, well, we're going to break up.
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Then, if you're going to be mad at me about this or you know, call me out on it.
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Yes, I call that going big.
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You know it's a smokescreen really that I can't disagree with you and this continued to be the way we sort of danced around each other all through into our marriage and through the marriage I couldn't really disagree about things that you should be allowed to have your own opinion on, because he would go big every time.
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At some point he did stop breaking up with me because we got married, obviously.
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But if you really look at this chapter, this is for me, looking back a big red flag.
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Now this was happening in the 90s.
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We didn't have the term red flag or we didn't use it this way, and I think it's really healthy that now, in our culture, we do that.
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I don't know if you've seen the flag guy on Instagram.
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With a giant red shirt.
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Yes, I love him, I love him, I do too I think he's doing a great thing for our culture because you've got a man who is calling out.
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I mean, he does handle both sexes, not equally but you've got a man who is often calling out other men on their toxic behavior.
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We didn't have anything like that in the 90s, right?
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If something were to happen like this, your boyfriend would be backed up by all of the other guys, all of his fraternity brothers and maybe even some of your friends would go easy on him and there was a lot of excuse making.
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And I know that still happens.
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I know that still is the case, um, but I do think that now we're calling out what, what this is, and these are red flags.
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So this is a person who has never hurt me at this point in the relationship, but ultimately he's he's throwing something.
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He's he's leaving a mark on my friend.
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He's leaving a mark on my friend, he's showing signs of abuse with my friend.
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And now, at my age, or as a healed person, I wouldn't get past this date with this person, no matter how much history we had or that we had already said I love you and those things.
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But as the unhealed version of myself, I was open to this.
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I was clinging to wanting to be with someone.
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I was clinging to really the idyllic idea of who he was when I met him, and everything is usually very positive in the beginning of these relationships, right?
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So if you cling to the beginning of relationships and that's all.
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You go on, then you're ignoring all kinds of behavior along the way that you really need to cue yourself, whether or not this should be long-term or not.
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Yes, and I'm of the same era.
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I'm of the Monster Burger era, walking home from the bars.
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We'd hit up parties all the time.
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But yeah, you're absolutely right.
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It was also in the 90s for me and there were no red flags.
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You didn't know what that was.
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But I think what's really important too is this was not the first time he broke up with you.
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Yes, Right, yes.
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And so when you start to notice because when people are drinking there can be disagreements, emotions are at a high, so sometimes it's difficult to determine okay, is this a real red flag or is this just normal behavior?
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But when you pair things with repetitive behavior, that's bad behavior.
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That's when you can say these are definitely red flags.
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That's right.
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That's right, and I will tell you this Prior to this, the other times that he had broken up with me, I am sure that I can remember saying to myself that's it, that's it, if he's done this enough times.
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But I think there was a voice within me that was really sad, was really hurt.
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I am an empathic person and I was a sensitive person all the way back to being a toddler.
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I just was one of those more sensitive natured people.
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I'm a very emotional person and I think the hurt and the rejection that I felt was something that even if I was saying I'm not putting up with this and my words were bigger than what I felt inside, because really what I wanted was for him to turn around and say and reconcile it and say, oh, I don't really mean that, because I was absorbing that as an insult to myself rather than using it as a way to judge and critique him.
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And that is a real internal problem that I see in a lot of younger, sensitive or um, or insecure people.
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Everything is being read to take it internally instead of judging the person and how they're treating them.
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Oh my gosh.
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Yes, and I think it's really important for people to understand that if somebody is going to use I'm going to break up with you as a punishment, you need to realize that has nothing to do with me.
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He's not breaking up with me, or he or she is not breaking up with me because I'm a bad person or I'm not enough.
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They're doing it because that's an issue that they have themselves.
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That's right.
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Actually, the next paragraph that I didn't tack onto this is Alec never explains himself after our reconciliations, nor does he acknowledge what has caused him to flip the switch.
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But my intuition tells me each time that it has much more to do with his past and extraordinarily little to do with me.
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So I understood that, but I think I almost took it, as this isn't an insult to me.
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This is something that I should feel sorry for him about or that you could fix.
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That I could fix.
00:16:45.057 --> 00:16:47.827
Yes, right, yes, and I think that was my problem.
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And you know my career, I'm a nurse practitioner, so you know I like to help people and fix things, so I'm a fixer.
00:16:57.312 --> 00:17:07.332
But yeah, those are definitely things that within you you start to question like, well, that might be them, but what can I do to help them?
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Yeah, with, that, yes, it's an if you have a nurturing heart, and I think that that's true for a lot of women especially.
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Of course there are lots of men.
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My husband has a nurturing heart, and I think, for women especially though, we are programmed to have these maternal instincts right.
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We're programmed to love unconditionally our children and protect them and heal them, and sometimes I think that bleeds into our relationships.
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And I had a therapist tell me when I was young and I should have listened I actually was in counseling because one of the times that Alec had broken up with me I was so deeply sad that I had to go into counseling so that I could get back to class and get past it.
00:17:51.593 --> 00:18:02.736
And one of the things that she had told me is that we don't, we should not, have unconditional love for our romantic relationships.
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That you know, you'll hear songs about.
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You know people loving their partner unconditionally, but actually that's very dangerous.
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Unconditional love should be reserved for children and parents and family members and you know, maybe some friends if they've become like family but that for a spouse or a partner we have to always be conditional because otherwise we're not putting boundaries in place.
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Otherwise we're not pushing back and we're training them that they can treat us any way that they like.
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I was just about to say unconditional equals no boundaries.
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Yes.
00:18:38.582 --> 00:18:41.329
Yes, and that's such a slippery slope.
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It really is.
00:18:43.342 --> 00:18:47.136
I think another thing I wanted to bring up is that you were in your 20s.
00:18:47.136 --> 00:18:55.523
You were in college when this was happening, and that's a very impressionable age and it's a very difficult age to still maneuver.
00:18:55.523 --> 00:19:05.579
Yes, you may have had relationships in high school, but they're not adult relationships and they're not you're living on your own and you're in charge of yourself kind of relationships.
00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:14.653
So this is like your first adult relationship and it's hard to determine also, then, what is normal, what's not normal.
00:19:14.653 --> 00:19:19.211
Is this just a regular part of a relationship?
00:19:19.211 --> 00:19:23.442
Is this what everybody is experiencing or is this something that's out of the ordinary?
00:19:23.804 --> 00:19:32.407
Yes, absolutely, and I think I did look around at that time and I did see that there was a difference between other girls and me.
00:19:32.407 --> 00:19:37.388
I would see girls with their boyfriends who maybe things weren't as intense and exciting as my relationship, but I could see that they weren't having the problems I was.
00:19:37.388 --> 00:19:42.707
I could see that they weren't as intense and exciting as my relationship, but I could see that they weren't having the problems I was.
00:19:42.707 --> 00:19:46.550
I could see that they weren't crying regularly like I was.
00:19:46.550 --> 00:19:53.446
And I remember one of my girlfriends saying to me one time it's not normal to cry every week about your relationship.
00:19:53.446 --> 00:19:55.627
I didn't really understand that.
00:19:55.627 --> 00:19:57.287
I don't think I really believed that.
00:19:57.420 --> 00:20:05.246
Now I'm in a very, very healthy marriage and have been for over a decade, and I can see exactly what they mean.
00:20:05.246 --> 00:20:07.559
Now I'm not upset in this relationship.
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:14.424
I'm very happy and it would be an exception for us to have a disagreement that led me to have such grief.
00:20:14.424 --> 00:20:18.230
I can't even really think of when that has happened.
00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:22.711
Not that things are perfect, but we deal with things in a healthy way.
00:20:22.711 --> 00:20:27.351
This wasn't my first abusive relationship.
00:20:27.351 --> 00:20:32.682
This is the one that took me the furthest and to the furthest damage, but prior to this.
00:20:32.682 --> 00:20:51.393
I had had two to three other very toxic, very intense boyfriends who did things that my girlfriends were concerned about and I just wasn't able to recognize it.
00:20:51.393 --> 00:21:02.615
Maybe I did recognize it because I was looking around and seeing that it wasn't this way for everyone, but maybe I just didn't love myself enough to understand that I deserved better.
00:21:02.615 --> 00:21:13.888
And that's one of the big ways into a relationship that's unhealthy and abusive like this is to not understand loving yourself.
00:21:14.951 --> 00:21:17.669
Yeah, and I remember being in college and I was single for quite a while and everybody else around me was coupling up.
00:21:17.669 --> 00:21:25.791
I remember being in college and I was single for quite a while and everybody else around me was coupling up and you know I was kind of thinking like, well, what's wrong with me?
00:21:25.791 --> 00:21:27.867
How come I haven't found somebody yet?
00:21:27.867 --> 00:21:32.791
And I actually had someone tell me well, you're setting your standards too high.
00:21:32.791 --> 00:21:34.306
And that stuck with me.
00:21:34.306 --> 00:21:39.767
And so I was like you know, I guess I am, so let me lower your standards.
00:21:39.767 --> 00:21:43.665
And I just want to say that is not okay.
00:21:43.665 --> 00:21:46.590
If you have standards, stick to them.
00:21:46.590 --> 00:21:49.962
If people aren't measuring up to them, there's a reason for that.
00:21:50.502 --> 00:21:51.505
Absolutely.
00:21:51.505 --> 00:22:06.873
And if friends of your boyfriend or your spouse are sticking up for them or your friends are telling you you're making too big of a deal, you have to use your own barometer and say, no, this isn't, this isn't good enough.
00:22:06.873 --> 00:22:09.328
And I think that's another problem that I had at that age.
00:22:09.328 --> 00:22:19.330
I didn't have a a really structured set of values for what I wanted, what I deserved in a relationship and what I shouldn't put up with.
00:22:19.330 --> 00:22:23.623
And my parents had a troubled marriage.
00:22:23.623 --> 00:22:39.344
It was not abusive, it was quiet, it was loveless and it really it taught me this is not what I want, but it didn't give me an example of anything that I should look towards, and my parents also.
00:22:39.523 --> 00:22:40.748
You know this was again.
00:22:40.748 --> 00:22:41.470
This was the 90s.
00:22:41.470 --> 00:22:46.607
It was less frequent to be divorced and I don't fault my mother for that.
00:22:46.607 --> 00:22:48.385
I don't fault my father for that.
00:22:48.385 --> 00:22:51.474
They were in that era of it's best to stay together for the kids.
00:22:51.474 --> 00:22:59.054
That's a nice sentiment, but in practice it sets your child up to have no roadmap for where to go.
00:22:59.054 --> 00:23:09.133
I knew I didn't want something like their marriage, so I was seeking intensity and it was putting me in a lot of hot water to do that.
00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:10.901
That was.
00:23:10.901 --> 00:23:15.010
I knew there were a lot of parallels that I drew with myself and your story.
00:23:15.010 --> 00:23:16.261
That same for me.
00:23:16.261 --> 00:23:35.261
My parents actually divorced my freshman year of college and I remember, prior to going home and learning about them planning to separate, just that Friday or before whatever I left, I was telling my roommate I'm like, yeah, my parents have been married and they have such a great marriage and blah, blah, blah.
00:23:35.261 --> 00:23:36.923
But it was the same thing.
00:23:36.923 --> 00:23:40.851
It was just very there was no intensity to it.
00:23:40.851 --> 00:23:41.875
There was just kind of nothing.
00:23:41.875 --> 00:23:50.656
It was like everybody was just coexisting is what the relationship was, and I never thought that I was probably looking for some intensity.
00:23:50.656 --> 00:23:53.693
But now that you mention it, maybe that's what I was looking for too.
00:23:53.994 --> 00:23:59.513
Sure, and it became almost addictive to me, right, because I didn't see that growing up in my home.
00:23:59.513 --> 00:24:06.038
You know, I saw these really, really lukewarm interactions between my parents.
00:24:06.038 --> 00:24:07.713
You know the kiss goodbye every morning.
00:24:07.713 --> 00:24:21.394
And again, I'm not faulting my parents, I think they did the best they could and I also think people married very young then and maybe didn't know enough about themselves to choose a partner that was going to maybe be the best lasting love down the road.
00:24:21.913 --> 00:24:36.590
But that intensity when it was applied to me, it felt so addictive, just because I think I had craved to see something like that between my parents and to see a display of love.
00:24:36.590 --> 00:24:54.259
And so for me, I think I was probably looking at what you see on TV and what you read in books, which is not it's not always healthy, right, the stories that we read, you know, I mean, you see, even now in these fantasy novels, I love to read those, but it's not always healthy dynamics.
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