38-Domestic Violence SURVIVOR: Viv's Battle with Legal Abuse

Transcript

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Hi Warriors, welcome to 1 in 3.

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I'm your host, ingrid.

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As you are well aware by now, domestic violence encompasses many forms of violence.

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One of those, however, I have neglected to talk about for too long Legal or litigation abuse, is when an individual utilizes the law or legal threats as a method of control.

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They may use tactics to intimidate or wear you down.

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My guest today, whom I will refer to as Viv, is a survivor whose case is still ongoing Eight years later.

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Her true identity is not used as her next court date is quickly approaching.

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Here is Viv.

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Thank you so much for having me and really finding me, because I think that is one of the most important things that's coming out of one in three podcast is that people are finding one another who've had sometimes different circumstances but have all kind of experienced a similar pattern.

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And when we find one another, no matter where we are living and what our lives are like right now, I feel like it's really powerful to have validation of what we've been through and to kind of share around how we've tried to navigate the challenges of survivorship.

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So my story is not very different, I think, than most other survivors and I'm not going to go in depth about all the details of what I experienced, but I'll say that my journey with an individual that I became involved with and was only in a relationship with for just over two years is very, very similar to almost all survivor stories, which is meeting someone who usually moves you very quickly into a relationship, figures out pretty quickly the things that you value most or want most out of life and then kind of manipulates those things to make it appear like those things are happening or possible, and so oftentimes we will move quickly and thinking that it's because this is just so wonderful and everything that we want is right here, but it's all deception.

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Most of it is deception, and so that happened to me and for a very long time I've carried a lot of kind of guilt and shame for not knowing better, a lot of kind of guilt and shame for not knowing better.

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But over the time that I've been navigating my own personal survivorship I've met a lot of folks, a lot of women particularly, who have had the same experience, and it's really helped me to process my own decisions, because I think I did make decisions, but again, I wasn't really informed of the truth about things, and because of that I'm here eight years later after getting out of that relationship.

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There are a few things that you said that really stuck out to me, and that's the guilt and shame, and that is so common, I think.

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What happens is people look at victims as the reason of being abused, as opposed to the behavior of the abuser of how did you let yourself get into that situation, why did you let yourself stay in that situation?

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And I think that's one of the reasons it's so difficult for any of us to leave is because you start to question yourself what did I do to cause this?

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And it's embarrassing to tell friends, family, colleagues or whomever of what you're going through, and I think that's just a very important point that I do try to stress as often as I can the embarrassment or the shame factor, because it's not your fault, it's not my fault, it's not any of our fault, it's them, it's the abuser that has manipulated and done this.

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And it's not because we're unintelligent or we're foolish, possibly a little bit of naivety, but that's just because you want to believe in human kindness, human like just being a decent human.

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You want to believe that that's what people are, and I think perhaps that's why we overlook some of the things.

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Yes, and Ingrid, I think, like for a very long time I felt like it, like I took it so personally, like also, how could this person have thought that it was okay to do this to me?

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You know, like, why me?

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Of all people?

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There's tons of people in the world, tons of women in the world, why me?

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And what I've really learned, you know, over this last, especially the last five years, is that it could have been anyone and in fact it likely was someone before me that I just don't know about.

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But I do know that there was someone after me and almost the same thing happened to her, thing happened to her.

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I think there was just some differences that gave her a little bit more protection that I didn't actually have.

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But it's a difficult thing also because there is this intersection with people, often too, who are abusers right that they sometimes also have other mental health issues going on.

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And so for myself, I recognized and was aware that there were other issues happening for this person, but because I didn't grow up in a home that was abusive or know the kind of things that I know today about patterns of abuse, I didn't recognize those things for what they were.

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I thought that this person was strictly having mental health issues and that actually staying and enduring was actually supporting this person's health and healing and wellbeing.

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But actually what I've really come to understand is that it's two sort of separate things and while mental health, some of the mental health issues can sort of fuel or like kind of take away the inhibition that people may have to abuse, they're really two separate things, because many people who have mental health issues are not abusers and they don't harm their partners.

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But when you're in the thick of it and you can't sort of, you know, I think for me I spent a lot of the time in that relationship, confused all the time, like wait a minute, what's happening right now?

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Like confused, did I do something?

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What's happening?

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Is it you know?

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So that kind of confusion, you know.

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Again I felt I didn't know up from down.

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In a very short time I was really again only in that relationship for just over two years.

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It moved very quickly.

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We were cohabitating, we ended up having a child together and I, just when it was over, I was like trying to understand what had just happened.

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I think that also is a really important takeaway is, like you know, some people spend 20 years with with an abusive partner and for all the reasons that that know either can't get out or they don't get out, and I just feel really fortunate I see the amount of damage and harm that just in a little over two years happened to me.

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And here I am.

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It's going to be very soon eight years since I split from that relationship and I have been in court with this person for that entire amount of time.

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So in the 10 years I've known this person, eight of it has been spent in court Because once that relationship broke and I said you cannot live here anymore if you are going to continue to abuse me, that was the bottom line and deep in my heart.

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I don't believe that.

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I really thought it was like I'm bottom lining this person and they're going to get it together.

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But that is not what happened and it's, I think, typically not ever what happens.

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And instead this person looked for the quickest avenue to exert power and it was through the court system, through the family court system.

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And so, really talking about the specific things that I endured physical abuse, psychological abuse, those things again very similar to what everybody you know, to many, many survivor stories.

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But I think what I really want to focus on is what happens when you stop cohabitating with that person and when you stop that relationship with them, how they can continue to find ways to control your life.

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Now, if we did not have a child together, it would be different, because there could have been a clean break when the way that we could be done and I could have moved away, I could have stopped all contact.

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But when you have a child, that links you to that person, unless that person decides to disappear.

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And so I've been over the last eight years through several different iterations of trying to control me through parenting, through the parenting experience, and that runs all the way from threatening me, including during the pregnancy, that this person was going to have the child removed from me, and when you don't know better, because you don't know the law or you've never sort of crossed a bridge like that before, those threats are very scary and very real, very scary and very real.

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We've been from that point of like trying to get custody all the way to just about I want to say it's not quite a year and a half ago or two years ago, almost sorry that the person tried to give up their custody.

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So like, went through all of this rigmarole, all this drama, all these agreements and trying to do all these things and then finally was just like, nope, I'm giving up my custody completely, had me sign paper, I mean, and then changed their mind like nine, 10 months later.

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So it just creates chaos, not to mention the incredible financial strain of being a respondent for such a long period of time and really the courts not ever sort of recognizing that what's happening is a continuation of control over the circumstance and over the person control over the circumstance and over the person.

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There are a few things again that I thought of.

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So when you were saying the threats could be scary because you don't know better, it's also because over time and just subtly, and then eventually not so subtly they break you down and they wear you down and they make you second guess everything Like is that real?

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Am I?

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Am I the crazy one?

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Did I make that up?

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Did that not really happen?

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And so you're not even sure what's happening.

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That's real, that's not real in your life anymore.

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And then when they come and they say things like I'm going to take the baby out of you, you're just kind of in this whirlwind of trying to survive, more or less.

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And then like I don't, okay, now what?

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Now there's that threat.

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So how do I go about dealing with that?

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The other thing when you leave the relationship, you think I've survived, I'm not that victim anymore, I'm now a survivor.

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But as long as they're an abuser, they can keep you in that victim status and I think the whole like I want custody, I don't want custody, let's go to court, let's not go to court.

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It's just another way of keeping you on edge and keeping that uncertainty in your life of, oh okay, so are things good?

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They're not good.

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They are good oh good, I'm going to get what I want and what I need.

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Never they are good.

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Oh good, I'm going to get what I want and what I need, nevermind.

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They just ripped that rug out from underneath me.

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So again, it's all just a very.

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It's the way that they can maintain control and and keep you second guessing and trying to keep you disrupted, and I think what's important for all of us is to understand that these patterns are there.

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They don't change.

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This person is not, most likely not going to change.

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I think that there are some instances where people can become a better person, so I'm not going to discount that, but in a lot of these cases, that's not what's happening, and so I think, unfortunately for us, we always have to stay on our toes and just be ready for what's to come.

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I agree with you and I've read this really powerful quote that said abusers, they don't abuse everybody.

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And because they have different, they have different faces, right, and the person that I deal with, you know, is very performance oriented and so people will say, oh, that person such a nice, such a nice guy, wow, so outgoing and, you know, personable and really loves his kid and yes, I mean because that's part of this right.

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Then it makes it seem like I'm crazy because I have fear of that person, right, and that there are concerns for our child's safety and my safety too in interacting.

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And I've had a lot of that too where I've expressed to the court too.

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We had a guardian at Lightham for a period of years, years and this person never screened me for DV, never took seriously any of my concerns about safety of the child, safety, my own safety, when doing exchanges.

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So I feel like, can people manipulate, try to manipulate the family court system and say that things happened that didn't Sure?

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But I think what the research says is that it's extremely rare that people do it and if they try and they meet with any kind of resistance with it, that they give up, right, because they see that their tactic is not working, and so I feel like people like myself and like you and many others who try, really try to express and tell the truth, and I could be spending my time doing so many other things right, use my bandwidth for so many other powerful, good things in the world, but I'm here eight years later still asking the court to consider my safety and our son's safety and wellbeing.

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So if this wasn't real, let me tell you I would be like I would like to be spending my time and my effort and my worry and my you know, my money right, everything on other things.

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And so it's a very frustrating circumstance because I just think that the family court system, especially here, they just, they just don't care, and it's reflected also in the kind of laws that pass here.

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You know, now, as of last summer, there is a 5050 is, you know what it is.

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But at the same time, we do have a measure that if a judge believes for any reason, even if there is not significant proof of violence, but that there is a risk that is related to any kind of family violence, including DB, that that family court judge has the ability to limit the contact of the child and the person who is a potential threat.

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Yet I don't believe that that measure is well understood and I don't think also that family court judges have the kind of training and awareness that they need around legal abuse, around financial abuse as well, and also just understanding in general, all of the different ways that somebody who is abusive what that look, what that can be like and what that looks like and it was said to me he never punched you, never punched me.

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Okay, but then what about all of these other things that happened?

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Right, and it just becomes really interesting how we define abuse and how we define risk on our of our safety and of our children's safety.

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Because, again, the what we know, what's in, like the scientific literature, what we understand about people who have control issues, abusers, is that the things that it's not always this direct abuse that leads to terrible circumstances, right, it's something that happens and that's why Florida did adopt a measure that is in place but it's not being, I don't think, again, judges understand it.

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You know, we continue to have people that kill their children, they kill their ex partners and then they kill themselves, and that is a very legitimate concern to have in some of the cases.

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I think there are a few things on this.

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In defense of a judge, they have become accustomed to every single person that steps into their courtroom for whatever offense beating ticket to murder that they are.

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That person that's standing in front of them is there to deceive the judge, and so it's very difficult for them to be able to understand who is the believable person and who's the liar in situations.

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And I think what happens, especially when you're first coming out of the relationship and you have now just made that decision to remove yourself from that situation, you're still.

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You're still broken down and you're still being actively abused, and it's easy to get in front of a judge and crumble because you're again.

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You're just, you're treading water, you're trying not to drown.

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And then now you have not always a sociopath and I know that's not the proper term anymore, but you have some.

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You have somebody that's standing there that has no empathy, no understanding that anything, that what they have done is wrong, that everything that they have done is justified because of whatever made up scenario they have in their head that you have done to them.

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So they are able to stand there confidently and speak clearly and truly believe that they are the the not the defendant in this case.

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Like they're, they have nothing to defend.

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They're the ones who are being wronged.

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And so when you have a judge who's looking at, well, this person has all of their shit together and they're able to talk clearly.

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And then you have this other person who's fumbling over words.

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Maybe that person's not telling the truth, maybe they're making things up and that's why they're fumbling and they can't form a complete sentence and tell me what's going on.

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There definitely needs to be education across the board, and I mean, I think, for those of us who can keep telling stories and keep pushing and letting our voices be heard, that will hopefully make a difference.

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Well, I think another really important thing to bring up here too, because we're talking you and I, we're talking a lot about like survivorship, right, and I just also want to bring up like the survivorship aspect of our children, because, for instance, my child was really small and was exposed to fighting, a lot of like escalation, had been taken out of my arms during conflict, but he doesn't have any memory of even us as parents living in the same home together.

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But there's still something there.

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And then there's all the aftermath of it, like all the things we're talking about right now the financial impacts, the ACEs, right, the adverse childhood experience that come from also, your parent being a survivor and your other parent being a perpetrator.

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So it's like these things, we know so much about them, but they're not accounted for when it comes to looking for the best interest of the child.

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And I would definitely say, in the state of Florida, what my experience has been is like the person who was the guardian in this case in the last few years, before going on the stand to testify, had not even met with the child for more than a year and went.

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You know, again, it's like it's so the whole thing has been focused on the father, on his rights, his, the hope that this person will like get themselves together.

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And I'm just like man, you know, where is the child in this?

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Because that's that's what it's about.

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Because I've been told, like your safety is not an issue, right?

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Like we're not here to talk about that, we're here to talk about the child and it's like okay, but this whole thing has been about this man.

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It's a very frustrating process.

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I know myself that the most important thing for my child, for our child, is for him to know or believe that he is deeply loved by his parents, and so I've really tried to adopt that as, like my mindset, he will get older and when he gets older he already asked so many questions, especially because this court process has gone for so long and I don't talk to him about it.

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But how does he not see, like all these weird things that happened and then his father's disappeared, and all of these different things?

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And my survivorship is part of who I am, and so I do a lot of work now in advocacy in the area of IPV and family violence prevention and intervention, and so my son understands that and sees that when he has asked me why do you care?

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And it's because it affected me, it affected my life, it affected his life.

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So I know, as he gets older, I know he's going to have a lot more questions, and this is part of his journey too.

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And the thing is about the court is that all of these things that have occurred exist on a court record that people can access, and at some point, as an adult, he will be able to access and request those documents to see that, including the criminal case that also accompanies this circumstance, if he chooses to.

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I think that is definitely one of the major concerns for parents when they get out of these relationships is what happens to my child.

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And then you look at your child and you wonder well, dna, they're half that person.

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And is that person a result?

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Is it nature?

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Is it nurture?

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Where did all of that come from?

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And it's so important to keep a strong, stable home.

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There's a shared custody or majority, whatever the situation may be.

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When that child is at your home, like you said, make sure they know they're loved and, as much as you may dislike your ex-partner, you need to let your child know that that person also loves your child and to have that strong home environment will help them in their future.

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And the concern is like am I raising somebody that's going to end up to be just like that other parent home?

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There's a stronger chance of them becoming a stable, well-balanced adult despite everything that they have to go through, absolutely.

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You know it's difficult, because I want to be able to kind of say some of the things that that occurred that also, I feel like are often get overlooked as like incidents, right, like oh well, that just happened, it just happened one time.

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But you know, one of my concerns for the safety of my son was that the person who abused me also experienced multiple hospitalizations for mental health and that was not disclosed to me.

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I didn't find that information out until after, including right before meeting each other and then there was a person after me, a partner after me, and that partner found me and contacted me around concerns about safety and asking me like, do I have any idea what's going on?

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Because that person also was not made aware, but was obviously like experiencing similar things, not only controlling abusive behavior, but also seeing some concerns, having concerns about mental health.

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Right, and I just want to say I am not a mental health professional, I'm just a person who has had to become a little bit more informed about these issues because of my life, the life experience that I had, and so what was really interesting is this person did come forward, did talk about the experiences that she had, including testifying, and basically the judge said that it was like we.

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So and I just want to say this really quick we had these us myself and the other person had never met each other.

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We've never spoken to each other.

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The only thing is that there was a contact to me, but then I couldn't.

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I didn't want to contact that person for my own safety because I didn't know if that person's communication was being monitored.

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You know what I'm saying, like all the feelings that you have, like why is this person, why would they do this, to contact me like this, like this could put me at risk and this person at risk.

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So, basically turned all of that over for attorneys to be able to navigate, and the person's story was quite similar to mine and the judge said that the stories were just too similar to each other, as though we were working together and it's like no, we're two different people.

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We both have a child with this person.

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We've never even met each other or spoken and we're telling you our experiences in our testimony and they're just too similar.

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It's almost like we that we use the same terminology or something to explain something, and it's again.

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It was just a shocking situation and also for me recalling.

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So let me let me backtrack for a minute and just say this.

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So after being in court for six and a half, almost seven years so that's like going through so many processes we almost went to trial.

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We'd sign an agreement.

00:28:23.576 --> 00:28:38.627
Nothing would be done with that agreement from the other party, like nothing ever moved forward or materialized, and so then we went through the period where the person was forward or materialized, and so then we went through the period where the person was giving up custody and had me sign documents and then change their mind.

00:28:38.627 --> 00:29:04.617
And then we ended up at trial a year ago in September, and basically I had to recall all of the things that I experienced, and so did the other person as well, which again there were some differences but very similar pattern of control, and basically the judge said that what I experienced, she didn't see it as abuse.

00:29:04.617 --> 00:29:22.724
She saw it as sort of just a relationship that I stayed in and eventually did get out of, but that they were not abuse, and that was extremely difficult to hear and accept.

00:29:23.685 --> 00:29:55.188
But again, I know what happened to me, I know what happened to my son and I'm here and I'm living my life, unfortunately, the way that the ruling on the case came down, there was no final ruling and so in two weeks after about it's like been nine or 10 months now we have to return for a continuation of trial.

00:29:55.188 --> 00:30:05.442
And at that point, I mean, everything right now is a bit of a mystery, like even why this is happening or how this could happen.

00:30:05.442 --> 00:30:12.685
The judge in the case was moved out of family court but had the right to retain the case and did so.

00:30:12.685 --> 00:30:36.807
In two weeks I will go back and there were certain things that the other party was supposed to do and take care of, including having a mental health evaluation and there being a report to kind of better understand what's happening and if that person is getting treatment for whatever comes out of that.

00:30:36.807 --> 00:30:40.240
And again, we're two weeks before and we have no news.

00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.726
We have no anything.

00:30:43.047 --> 00:31:15.336
The other thing is that after not seeing the child for it was about approximately two and a half years, maybe just a little bit more than that the judge allowed the child to be with the father without any monitoring of a visit, and it is minimal time and it is in a public place, but still it's like you know, you, you go through all the details and you tell all of this stuff and your concerns and basically it was really not.

00:31:15.336 --> 00:31:31.883
There was no concern on the part of the judge when it came to the child, the child's safety, and then also there's the whole aspect of like no contact with the child for 10 months and attempting to give up custody of the child.

00:31:31.883 --> 00:31:36.500
No one really asked any questions like well, how has this impacted?

00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:52.042
When it comes to the guardian who testified, there was no information about any of that because she had not met with the child and the judge, I guess, didn't really see that there could or perceive that there was any issue or damage.

00:31:52.042 --> 00:31:54.086
Just on that alone.

00:31:54.686 --> 00:32:04.954
Earlier you said that there's like that kind of what happens in these cycles with people who are abusers and have control issues like this.

00:32:04.954 --> 00:32:27.875
Is this just constant pattern of disruption that they create in your life, but it also disrupts, like, the stability of their children's lives, and courts just don't seem to want to address that, or I can't say that they're not aware.

00:32:27.875 --> 00:32:29.820
I just can't.

00:32:29.820 --> 00:32:58.536
Based on all of the trainings that I see that are available to people Also trying to ensure that actors of the court are given training and have to have to have some awareness, I do kind of feel like it's just it just maybe don't care about that so much, that so much.

00:32:58.536 --> 00:33:06.583
It's really demoralizing as a survivor to just keep telling the story and trying to show how you're doing everything that you can to create stability and counter the disruption right, it's not recognized.

00:33:07.685 --> 00:33:08.828
It's very dismissive.

00:33:08.828 --> 00:33:15.097
It's a very dismissive feeling for a judge to hear this and just be like me, like whatever this is what I decide.

00:33:15.097 --> 00:33:23.023
Your case blows my mind because I mean, he did say he wanted to give up rights at one point.

00:33:23.023 --> 00:33:41.227
You would think just that, even if he were seeing your child, just that you would think, well, let me, let me step back a moment and maybe not just a word time to him, just right out of the gate it just, I don't know.

00:33:41.227 --> 00:33:44.578
It's very frustrating and, like I said, it is very dismissive.

00:33:44.578 --> 00:33:51.137
Is it the same judge that said she didn't feel that what you went through was really?

00:33:51.137 --> 00:33:52.682
Oh, no, yes.

00:33:54.184 --> 00:34:24.001
The other thing I want to say too is, when you think that we've been in court for eight, almost eight years now, right, during that period of time there was a criminal case that was also happening at the same time, and multiple times we almost went to trial and then basically there was something that someone and I'm not saying on my side, I'm saying on the other side right, like was supposed to do, it didn't do, and so things would get pushed back.

00:34:24.001 --> 00:34:33.278
I think it was four times that we were meant to go to trial, and every time we would come up to that point, there'd be an ask for an extension, because these things are not done.

00:34:33.278 --> 00:34:42.601
And also, one other thing I want to just point out is, throughout this whole entire period of time, there's been no order on child support.

00:34:42.601 --> 00:34:57.898
So, basically, for the last we did put into place, like we agreed on an amount that was supposed to be like paid monthly, and it never did and it's never, I mean.

00:34:57.898 --> 00:35:29.264
Now, finally, we've seen the Department of Revenue, childhood or Child Support Office sorry begin to try to do anything, but it's basically like 10 or 20 dollars per pay period or month or whatever that ends up coming through, because a whole other side of this is that this person, who was a competent working person, who was doing their thing and making a great living, also just basically decided to not work.

00:35:30.045 --> 00:35:41.262
And so, again, you would think that, first of all, the very first thing that any family court judge should be saying is how is this child being supported?

00:35:41.262 --> 00:35:42.505
Where are they living?

00:35:42.505 --> 00:35:50.746
What is their the stability of the circumstance for the child, and who's contributing to that?

00:35:50.746 --> 00:36:00.934
So, and I'll be totally honest with you, I'm just going to say to you, when this person said I'm giving up my cousin, I was like, oh my gosh, it's a bit, it's bittersweet.

00:36:00.934 --> 00:36:28.259
It's bittersweet because for my, for my son, it's just that was heartbreaking right For him, but at the same time it the feeling of safety for him and for me, for both of us, it was like, oh my gosh, you know there's a part of you that just feels a sense of you know, but the flip side of that too is that I would not have pursued, I would not if they walked away, I would not go looking for them, I would not try to collect anything.

00:36:28.259 --> 00:36:33.481
I'm just like, please just stop suing me, just let me care for this child.

00:36:33.481 --> 00:36:42.737
And that's why I had negotiated agreements and things in the past to try to not prolong this situation, but essentially here we are.

00:36:44.483 --> 00:36:44.985
That's the thing.

00:36:44.985 --> 00:36:46.775
You're not going for this financial gain.

00:36:46.775 --> 00:36:57.538
You're just going for stability and peace and being able to move forward and live a life and not have to constantly look behind your back to see what's coming after you.

00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:11.041
Right and I get these really intense feelings sometimes like, oh, I have no control, and then I'm like psyching myself out, I have to stop right there and I have to think to myself this can't go on forever.

00:37:11.041 --> 00:37:17.440
Technically, this person could do this for another 10 years, right, nine, 10 years.

00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:45.155
They could continue to use the courts in the way that they have been using them to kind of again be disruptive, to create, attempt to create instability, which has an impact on the child too, because the child now and even previously, would be told, like you know, pretty soon this is going to be over and you're going to come and be with me and you're going to go to this other city where this person lives, which is do you understand what I'm saying?

00:37:45.155 --> 00:37:48.143
And my kid's like mom, what is happening right now?

00:37:48.143 --> 00:37:48.945
What is happening?

00:37:48.945 --> 00:37:50.938
Is that real, is that true?

00:37:50.938 --> 00:37:53.443
And how do you answer questions like that?

00:37:53.684 --> 00:38:12.786
Or when this person tried to give up custody, of course I didn't tell my child that, but the person, the other parent, just literally from one day to another, just disappeared, just stopped calling, stopped any contact, didn't send cards, didn't call, and so my kid was like, where is my dad?

00:38:12.786 --> 00:38:17.798
Is everything okay with him how do you address these things?

00:38:17.798 --> 00:38:20.628
You know it's, it has impact.

00:38:20.628 --> 00:38:23.456
And at one point my son said do you think I'll ever see my dad again?

00:38:23.456 --> 00:38:26.882
And I had to be very honest and say I don't.

00:38:26.882 --> 00:38:29.007
I really don't know.

00:38:29.007 --> 00:38:30.677
I can't answer that question.

00:38:30.677 --> 00:38:32.981
The uncertainty right.

00:38:33.923 --> 00:38:35.527
And that's that's a terrifying thing.

00:38:35.527 --> 00:38:37.038
Is that uncertainty?

00:38:37.038 --> 00:38:39.143
And I think you're doing a great job.

00:38:39.143 --> 00:38:55.775
You have to be as honest with your child, depending on their age and where they are, be honest and keep that open line of communication so they know who they can trust, they know who the stable person is that they can speak with, so they know who they can trust, they know who the stable person is that they can speak with.

00:38:55.775 --> 00:38:59.739
And I mean the truth sucks, there's no other way to say it.

00:38:59.739 --> 00:39:00.364
The truth absolutely sucks.

00:39:03.422 --> 00:39:09.059
And you don't need to disclose everything to the child Eventually, as the children get older.

00:39:09.059 --> 00:39:12.969
Absolutely you can disclose whatever you feel you can.

00:39:12.969 --> 00:39:17.797
Absolutely you can disclose whatever you feel you can.

00:39:17.797 --> 00:39:18.039
But oh it's.

00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:20.625
It's just so frustrating because you're still trying to maintain that person does love you as well.

00:39:20.625 --> 00:39:24.079
You don't want to paint this awful picture about them.

00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:31.059
No, and I think the other, the other fear too eventually as as children get older and they they also recognize.

00:39:31.059 --> 00:39:33.344
Like that is half of me, so am.

00:39:33.563 --> 00:39:48.585
Am I that I don't know that in any of these situations there's a clear win again, unless, even even when the perpetrator is out of the picture for whatever reason, incarcerated or has passed away.

00:39:49.166 --> 00:40:05.210
There's no clear win because that person was a part of your child, whether, even if it was in their infanthood, there's still that question of you know, is there a mental health issue that now, as as the child of that person, am I going to be predisposed to?

00:40:05.715 --> 00:40:45.947
And it's, it's a very long battle, it's not a hopeless battle, but it's exhausting, and that's, I think that's another thing that these abusers look at is I know I can wear that person down and if I just keep this up, eventually and a lot of times that does happen, unfortunately where the victim does throw in the towel and either is like I just can't do this anymore, I will comply with whatever they give or, in some extreme instances, they take their own lives because it gets to be too difficult of a struggle, and I mean it's.

00:40:45.947 --> 00:41:18.639
There has to be, there has to be a change, because right now, what we have in place in terms of domestic violence, in terms of legal, you know, from calling and reporting and trying to get a restraining order all the way to the court system it's broken and it's not designed to actually help the victims and a lot of times it just re-victimizes or even can hurt the victim in some instances and we have to do something about it Based on what you were just saying.

00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:38.572
there's another thing that I want to say, and I feel like there've been a few people who have been on this journey kind of with me, even during the time that I was in the relationship, and they really saw me struggling and trying to figure out what to do and how to navigate and knew that something wasn't right.

00:41:38.572 --> 00:41:43.083
They obviously were right there kind of experiencing.

00:41:43.083 --> 00:41:55.307
Experiencing what was happening in my life, the instability that was happening because of these circumstances, and, even though people have had that, were there and saw it and stuff.

00:41:55.307 --> 00:41:58.862
There've been a few people that are like, are you going to get over this?

00:41:58.862 --> 00:42:00.320
Like are you over it?

00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:09.726
Yet I was like, how do you ever fully get over it, especially when, then, it's continuing?

00:42:10.016 --> 00:42:17.695
But in the court, right, it's like I'm a respondent, I'm not choosing to be there to do this.

00:42:17.695 --> 00:42:28.108
I would not be choosing this if I didn't, in my heart, believe that there are legitimate concerns for the safety and wellbeing of the child.

00:42:28.108 --> 00:42:33.744
And then, because you're just also getting kind of pulled through this whole process, what do you do?

00:42:33.744 --> 00:42:37.905
You can't fully get over it, and it's meant to.

00:42:37.905 --> 00:42:41.958
I mean, I think, many, many women and men as well.

00:42:41.958 --> 00:43:19.097
But many, many women sign agreement and term sign to terms that are not in the best interest of their children, are not in the best interest of their children, are not in the best interest of their personal safety as well, because they cannot afford safety, not only financially, but the bandwidth that it takes to be a respondent right In these circumstances, while you're also trying to care for your children, care for yourself, heal, and so what happens?

00:43:19.097 --> 00:43:29.402
People sign things that they don't really want to and shouldn't have ever signed, and it creates even more even more ripples.

00:43:29.521 --> 00:43:50.965
And it's a legitimate fear too, because you go into the court system, you can plead your case, you can have a rock solid case, but ultimately it's that judge and that judge can be like I don't like your hair, I don't like you, so I'm going to side with that person because, just because you know and and truly hopefully, hopefully that's not the case.

00:43:50.965 --> 00:43:57.451
I had a friend go into the court system actually in Florida and the judge said you can say whatever you want to say.

00:43:57.451 --> 00:44:01.362
Ultimately it depends on how I feel at the end of the day and whether I like you or not.

00:44:02.103 --> 00:44:04.239
There's no accountability of that system.

00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:12.766
And there's no accountability also of all of these different actors within the court, for instance the guardian at light.

00:44:12.766 --> 00:44:19.688
Now, listen, I'm going to just tell you that I do believe in the guardian at light, like in theory.

00:44:19.688 --> 00:44:25.545
But there are guardian at light that they work for, for profit.

00:44:25.545 --> 00:44:27.817
They are not doing this out of the kindness of their heart.

00:44:27.817 --> 00:44:36.862
They are doing this because they are being paid, and handsomely, to be an actor of the court and be the eyes and ears of the judge.

00:44:36.862 --> 00:44:42.503
But unfortunately there's no accountability of these folks.

00:44:42.503 --> 00:44:51.856
There's no kind of standard of how they are supposed to conduct their work or what they're supposed to do, and if something happens or bad happens, they are not responsible.

00:44:51.856 --> 00:45:05.773
And that also was a major eye-opening experience for me, because you expect that there's some kind of control or standard right Like that these folks operate under, and it's just not there.

00:45:05.893 --> 00:45:14.668
And they know many of them are not versed in DV or family violence as an area.

00:45:14.668 --> 00:45:15.530
You know what I mean.

00:45:15.530 --> 00:45:22.577
A lot of them are people who either they're from the legal field or they're like psychology, social work, but they don't.

00:45:22.577 --> 00:45:24.903
It doesn't mean that they have specialized.

00:45:24.903 --> 00:45:30.635
And many people who are going to engage a guardian headlight are going to be people that have those kinds of circumstances.

00:45:30.635 --> 00:45:46.309
So those folks who are actors of the court, they need to be experts in family violence, ipv, all of these things and because again they, the court takes very seriously what those people have to say.

00:45:46.309 --> 00:46:02.907
And if those people don't have expertise, they're giving courts information, they're giving judges information that's not accurate, again, and not in the best interest of the children.

00:46:03.672 --> 00:46:03.954
Absolutely.

00:46:03.954 --> 00:46:14.644
And I think with that system, even if they weren't in it because they actually felt this heart and they want to be part of it, I could imagine the burnout is even like Department of Children and Families.

00:46:14.644 --> 00:46:32.684
You have perhaps people go into that and they're so overworked and they're so overwhelmed and if you get too emotionally vested you'll lose yourself, you'll lose your mind and it's just such a broken system on so many different levels and there are so many areas to improve things.

00:46:32.684 --> 00:46:34.688
It's overwhelming.

00:46:35.094 --> 00:46:39.588
I did have a guest on who she had written a book, the Ecosystem.

00:46:39.588 --> 00:46:57.643
I'm going to say the title wrong because I don't have it in front of me, but I like that she used the term ecosystem when describing domestic violence, because there are so many different parts of it and they all contribute and there, which again, it does seem overwhelming.

00:46:57.643 --> 00:47:13.617
But then it also seems like, okay, we could actually tackle this because we can address that section, we can address that section and that can address that section and that section and that section and hopefully come to some better conclusion than what we have at our fingertips right now.

00:47:14.958 --> 00:47:24.762
Yes, and I want to just say one other thing too, about being having been in court for this many years, a respondent in a case that's gone on this long.

00:47:24.762 --> 00:47:44.563
I also just feel like at what point, when you have people that we've gone multiple times and agreed on terms and have agreements, parenting agreements on what this is going to look like, and there again, because we would make one and then nothing would ever happen with it.

00:47:44.563 --> 00:47:45.847
Do you see what I'm saying?

00:47:45.847 --> 00:47:47.820
You negotiated and nothing happens.

00:47:47.820 --> 00:47:49.443
It's just a piece of paper.

00:47:49.443 --> 00:47:50.666
That's what happens.

00:47:50.666 --> 00:47:58.306
And then that person decides that they don't want to do that and then they pursue more legal, like they pursue the court, right as the answer.

00:47:58.306 --> 00:48:00.414
And then you go back to mediation.

00:48:00.414 --> 00:48:02.157
You create another plan.

00:48:02.157 --> 00:48:08.429
That person doesn't honor that plan and then they decide they're not happy with it and then they bring it back.

00:48:08.429 --> 00:48:09.050
Do you understand?

00:48:09.050 --> 00:48:13.606
It's just like how is this allowed to go on?

00:48:13.606 --> 00:48:20.009
Because we could have come to a place and we did.

00:48:20.009 --> 00:48:40.347
We did negotiate terms that created some safety nets for the child, that created what we could live with, and then those things never were honored by that other person who then decided they wanted to change those terms and just continued and continued and continued to bring it back to the court.

00:48:40.489 --> 00:48:55.911
And at what point does the court literally say enough, this is enough, because and recognize this as noncompliance and recognize this as a tactic of control.

00:48:55.911 --> 00:48:57.878
And they, they don't.

00:48:57.878 --> 00:49:03.365
And I, and I will say that I think the like.

00:49:03.365 --> 00:49:15.958
They say that it's approximately 4% of cases like where people split and there's been circumstances, like like the ones that we've experienced, of abuse, and so it's a low number.

00:49:15.958 --> 00:49:33.286
But the courts, the family court system has to be nimble enough, right Like to, to recognize those things and react to it and say enough, this is enough, this is what you signed and you're you need to honor that and it does.

00:49:33.286 --> 00:49:34.378
That's just just doesn't.

00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:53.315
It just doesn't, it's not happening Right and the statistics, I personally believe, are skewed because we don't always say I know people who have gone to court and they've filed for divorce for irreconcilable differences and it's actually because of domestic abuse, but they just want to have a quick.

00:49:53.315 --> 00:49:56.420
You know so for sure.

00:49:56.420 --> 00:50:04.356
This is happening way more often than anyone is aware of and the statistics I don't think add up to it.

00:50:04.617 --> 00:50:31.891
Legal abuse I'm very happy that you came on it and have talked about this, because that is a neglected or unknown form of domestic violence, because you don't have bruises, you don't have broken bones, you don't have a sexual trauma kit, a kid, you could possibly have therapy and those records because of this, but it's not recognized because everyone else is focusing on, well, hospital records.

00:50:31.891 --> 00:50:36.844
Do you have a hospital record of coming in with broken bones or broken rib, whatever it was?

00:50:36.844 --> 00:50:38.007
Oh, you don't.

00:50:38.007 --> 00:50:39.677
Well, is that really abuse?

00:50:39.677 --> 00:50:46.309
Okay, I think it is slowly getting to be recognized as mental.

00:50:46.309 --> 00:50:53.641
There is the concerns for PTSD and things along that nature, but I feel like that's even not necessarily recognized.

00:50:53.641 --> 00:51:01.063
As well as just physical violence is what domestic violence is, and legal abuse is huge.

00:51:01.063 --> 00:51:29.219
It's huge and it probably happens in, I would say a very high number percentage of domestic violence cases, and it's just not known to litigate, and then most of the time, unfortunately, women.

00:51:29.239 --> 00:52:00.512
It's not always, because sometimes there are women who make more money or have more means than their past partner, but in many cases men have more credit, they have more of a higher income and they're able to flex that to engage attorneys, where then typically the respondent, who is the female, is like a woman, is trying to figure out oh my gosh, how am I even going to have an attorney to represent me as a respondent in this circumstance?

00:52:00.512 --> 00:52:03.844
And also there's the thing where people don't pay child support.

00:52:03.844 --> 00:52:17.958
So I mean, I think there are some really good examples of things that have happened in other states where they're it's like okay, you split, Okay, Then we're getting an order for who's got the child right now and who's paying what, and it's like right out of the gate.

00:52:17.958 --> 00:52:24.985
But that's not been my experience here and I have also tried to engage because it also costs money to do that.

00:52:24.985 --> 00:52:26.347
So I just want to point that out too.

00:52:33.114 --> 00:52:35.936
Like, pursuing child support also costs you money because you have to have an attorney who gets the person's information.

00:52:35.976 --> 00:52:49.460
And also that's been a major issue in the case that I've been involved in, where the person will not provide their financial affidavits right Updated affidavits and proof that supports anything that they do provide.

00:52:49.460 --> 00:53:18.067
Like an affidavit, you can fill in anything, but if you don't provide supportive documents and so just some of the things that this person has done to slow the process, because how do you ask a judge to rule on something if you can't even get the person to give you documents and then that person's not held accountable for not complying, and it lengthens your whole time, that you have to be in court and have an attorney, and it's just an unreal circumstance.

00:53:18.067 --> 00:53:21.545
And you tell people this and they're like well, you could have done this, you could have done that.

00:53:21.545 --> 00:53:22.599
And it's like well, you know what?

00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:33.202
We've tried all these different avenues, but it's just there's a lack of accountability.

00:53:33.202 --> 00:53:34.208
I wouldn't do it, I would be in a lot more trouble.

00:53:34.208 --> 00:53:35.434
I'm the respondent and so there's like a different standard.

00:53:35.434 --> 00:53:40.244
I feel like you're held to when you're the respondent, like of cooperation.

00:53:40.284 --> 00:53:41.909
Right, Right, yeah, exactly.

00:53:41.909 --> 00:53:54.090
And again it's all a tactic to just wear you down, Like there's eventually he or she's going to run out of money, Eventually he or she's going to run out of patience and they're not going to be able to handle this anymore.

00:53:54.090 --> 00:54:12.554
Then there's the aspects of I have friends who their ex partner has quit their job, as similar to what you were saying but they're still working, but they're contractors, so they're able to be paid in cash, and so now there's no line of proof of financial income.

00:54:12.554 --> 00:54:21.597
And there are so many tactics that they use to again just wear you down, maintain the control, or like they don't care.

00:54:21.597 --> 00:54:29.887
I'm living by myself, I don't care if I live in a shack right now, as long as it's going to hurt that person that, whatever reason.

00:54:29.887 --> 00:54:35.905
Eight years later, I still need to be manipulating and trying to control and abuse.

00:54:36.606 --> 00:54:47.188
Yeah, every circumstances is different for people, but there are lines that are just the same that run through all of these stories.

00:54:47.188 --> 00:55:01.884
Right, that we tell and and it is like I I do not believe that this person is trying to punish me because they love me so much or something.

00:55:01.884 --> 00:55:17.168
I just I think anybody who this person gets involved with is going to be punished, because that's how this person operates in the world, especially with anybody that they've ever been intimately involved with, and it's just going to be like that.

00:55:17.168 --> 00:55:23.807
But it's not really punishing me as much as it's actually punishing our child.

00:55:23.807 --> 00:55:27.115
It's actually punishing our child and that's not recognized.

00:55:27.135 --> 00:55:49.757
You know, when I think about the amount of money that I have had to pay to not walk into a courtroom without an attorney just to have representation, I mean the quality of life that our child could have had, you know, with the money that that's been spent doing this.

00:55:49.757 --> 00:55:59.159
But again, that's why I say I don't think that people do people sometimes, you know, not tell the truth, yes, but it is.

00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:34.148
It's teeny, tiny compared to the people who do, who, you know, really do advocate for the health and wellbeing and safety of their kids, because it's just too much that you're, that you're risking and that you're doing it's so much of a of a compromise that you're making to do this because you understand the severity right Of like what is possible, because you lived, you lived with, you know that person and it, it and who harmed you and harmed your children.

00:56:35.976 --> 00:56:36.538
Absolutely.

00:56:36.538 --> 00:56:38.224
I think this was a great talk.

00:56:38.224 --> 00:56:49.322
I really do, and I think what's really important that, yeah, as we've said, the recovery from domestic violence and the resources that are currently there are not ideal.

00:56:49.322 --> 00:56:57.684
The best way to stop domestic violence is to prevent it from happening, and I think awareness is key.

00:56:57.684 --> 00:57:03.994
That's in no means am I putting this on victims and saying you should know better or whatever.

00:57:03.994 --> 00:57:12.230
It's just no one knows what is truly out there and there are red flags and I discuss that in other episodes.

00:57:12.494 --> 00:57:20.623
Also, when you're in the situation, you may not even recognize what's happening, and it's important to hear stories like yours to show this is abuse.

00:57:21.164 --> 00:57:24.460
You're not imagining things, you're not overreacting.

00:57:24.460 --> 00:57:29.103
This is actual abuse and you may be in it right now.

00:57:29.103 --> 00:57:44.568
And here's what can be done, here's how to get out of it, here's what you should do and then, hopefully, here's what to avoid and for family members and other people to recognize that, hey, my loved one might be in this situation.

00:57:44.568 --> 00:57:46.501
How can I support them?

00:57:46.501 --> 00:58:13.467
And I mean that's I guess at this point and hopefully there can be some law changes and I have been able to thankfully, talk to different people where there are some things that are happening that are changing for the benefits of domestic violence survivors, and and again, domestic violence is incorporating all of it, all of the sexual, emotional, psychological, legal, financial, physical, all of that.

00:58:13.467 --> 00:58:18.425
That all is under that umbrella, and you know, I think we just need to keep going.

00:58:18.425 --> 00:58:27.596
We need to keep being loud about this, get the statistics updated, let people know what is happening, and we're not going to be quiet about it anymore.

00:58:29.559 --> 00:59:01.907
I agree and I think, from my perspective also, I just feel like that the need for accountability of the family court system to be able to respond, to recognize and respond to DV, ipv and family violence in the many different forms that it takes, including the actors of the court, like Guardian, like all of those other folks parenting, anybody who's doing like the parenting, counseling and coordination all those people need.

00:59:01.907 --> 00:59:09.989
There need to be accountability measures for them that, if something's going wrong, that you have the ability and that they recognize IPV.

00:59:09.989 --> 00:59:32.400
And the other thing I was going to say is there are many, as we know, many, many victims who lose their lives right, and they don't get to have the conversations that we're having right now and get to I hate to say it like that but get to deal with all these other problems because they never made it.

00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:36.146
They were murdered by the person who perpetrated them.

00:59:36.146 --> 00:59:41.567
And what I want to just really say is that we need more.

00:59:42.434 --> 00:59:47.324
I feel like what happens with services for survivors is like okay, are you safe?

00:59:47.324 --> 00:59:49.817
Is your life in danger?

00:59:49.817 --> 00:59:55.409
No, okay, you're cool, go ahead, get some counseling, or you know what I mean.

00:59:55.409 --> 01:00:12.289
There are so many, like you said, other parts of this from being able to get back on your feet financially, being able to navigate all of these other systems that are not being responsive to IPV, and surviving your survivorship.

01:00:12.289 --> 01:00:25.407
And what we know from the research is that, unfortunately, people who experience this in their lives have a much greater risk of chronic illnesses, and I think about that every day.

01:00:25.407 --> 01:00:33.824
I'm like, yes, I want to thrive, but at this point, right now, I just want to survive, finishing out whatever this is.

01:00:33.824 --> 01:00:57.675
I have 10 more years that this could go on in my life and for those 10 years, I need to stay healthy, I need to stay here, I need to be here for my son, and these are real things, and there is not support in the survivorship sort of scope of those things, at least, not where I am and not from what I have experienced.

01:00:59.018 --> 01:01:05.789
I agree, and so not to totally bash on family court, but this is where our issues are.

01:01:05.789 --> 01:01:17.304
If you were to bring a case in a criminal system or a civil suit, you know the perpetrator would be found guilty and there wouldn't be this drawn out mess.

01:01:17.304 --> 01:01:33.532
But because it's going through the family law system for some reason, it's difficult for anyone to comprehend that perhaps this person should not be a part of this child's life anymore, or perhaps there is a bad guy and a good guy in this situation.

01:01:34.074 --> 01:01:40.929
Yeah, I mean having also gone through that route as well, at least in the state that I'm in.

01:01:40.929 --> 01:01:47.327
I don't have a lot of faith either in the criminal process, criminal system.

01:01:47.327 --> 01:01:48.309
I don't know.

01:01:48.309 --> 01:02:06.047
I don't know how to weigh in on that other than just to say I agree with you in the way that there is a lack of recognition and responsiveness that diminishes the risk to the wellbeing and well-being and safety of our kids and also us.

01:02:06.688 --> 01:02:16.367
I have to go, and whenever there has to be an exchange, I have to go and interact with a person that I do not feel safe around.

01:02:16.367 --> 01:02:19.722
But I do that for my kid and I figure out ways.

01:02:19.722 --> 01:02:21.045
I never go alone.

01:02:21.045 --> 01:02:25.275
We have all these little safety things that are built into how we do this.

01:02:25.275 --> 01:02:28.398
We never go near my car or to that person's car.

01:02:28.398 --> 01:02:29.559
We're in a public block.

01:02:29.559 --> 01:02:30.000
All these things.

01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:41.088
Man, what would it be like if I didn't have to always be thinking about these things and that somebody, also in the court system, is also thinking about these things through the lens of the safety and well-being of?

01:02:41.088 --> 01:02:42.329
Like the safety and wellbeing.

01:02:42.329 --> 01:02:52.268
It's like, yes, when people split, there's conflict, it's inevitable.

01:02:52.179 --> 01:03:04.438
Almost all people, when they split, there's some conflict, but then with regular you know, with regular relationships I don't even know what that means, but you know what I'm saying when there hasn't been violence, let's say that violence, abuse and control issues like we have experienced yeah, people get on with it and they get on.

01:03:04.438 --> 01:03:15.644
And I've seen incredible examples where people have partnerships and they're split and they take care of their kids and they love their children and they still do things together and they've been able to heal.

01:03:15.644 --> 01:03:21.068
So I think that doesn't happen when there's been abuse, it's not it, it's.

01:03:21.068 --> 01:03:22.489
Is it possible?

01:03:22.730 --> 01:03:39.824
I don't know, I just I don't know, but I'm going to say that it doesn't happen because there's still that propensity for that person to try to exert control and and their stuff right the person who they abused, including through the children.

01:03:39.824 --> 01:04:09.659
So I just, so I just really can't believe that it's 2024 and that we can't figure it out, that we can't take the research and use the research to innovate the systems that have so much to do with the well-being of children and the well, the wellbeing of functioning, healthy, thriving people in the world.

01:04:09.659 --> 01:04:10.943
We can't, we don't do that.

01:04:10.943 --> 01:04:22.478
It's like the systems are 20 plus years behind with the research is telling us needs or can be in place to create better outcomes, and we're not we're not using it.

01:04:23.581 --> 01:04:25.746
We're not and I don't know.

01:04:25.746 --> 01:04:32.344
I mean other than for all of us to keep telling our stories and keep doing what we can to be heard.

01:04:32.344 --> 01:04:35.389
I don't know personally what can be done.

01:04:35.389 --> 01:04:42.014
I'm hoping that the right people hear it and we can figure out where to go from here and keep advocating for ourselves.

01:04:42.014 --> 01:04:46.643
And you know, you mentioned before of how people are like when are you going to get over it?

01:04:46.643 --> 01:04:53.936
I have a friend who actually asked me so how many more episodes are you going to do with this domestic violence podcast before you're over it?

01:04:53.936 --> 01:04:56.344
And I'm like, oh no, no, no, no.

01:04:56.344 --> 01:05:02.905
Because the thing is, even if I feel like I'm in a stable place personally, I know someone else is not.

01:05:02.905 --> 01:05:13.478
So for those of us who have the capabilities to advocate for the others that are still in it or going through it or trying to survive themselves, it doesn't end.

01:05:13.478 --> 01:05:15.141
We can't let it end.

01:05:15.141 --> 01:05:28.909
So we just need to keep pushing, keep doing what we can until somebody can shake up this ecosystem of domestic violence and get it taken care of.

01:05:31.536 --> 01:05:31.936
I agree.

01:05:31.936 --> 01:05:40.981
Thank you so much for having me and I'm looking forward to coming back after returning to court and coming back with a final ruling.

01:05:41.402 --> 01:05:43.364
And everyone.

01:05:43.364 --> 01:05:51.065
We all wish you so much luck with that and looking forward to hearing what the outcome hopefully favorable outcome is.

01:05:52.429 --> 01:05:52.731
Awesome.

01:05:52.731 --> 01:05:54.536
Thank you so much for doing what you do.

01:05:54.617 --> 01:05:56.481
Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this.

01:05:56.481 --> 01:05:57.264
This is huge.

01:05:57.264 --> 01:06:01.590

38-Domestic Violence SURVIVOR: Viv's Battle with Legal Abuse

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