34-Bail Attorney: Ken W. Good

Speaker 1:
0:23

Hi Ken, welcome and thank you for joining me today.

Speaker 2:
0:27

Well, thank you very much for having me. You don't know how excited I am that this is not video and I can just talk.

Speaker 1:
0:33

Yes, you don't have to worry about how either one of us looks.

Speaker 2:
0:36

So that's, great.

Speaker 1:
0:36

I know you have a lot of interesting information, so I'm going to mute myself and let you take it away, if that's okay with you.

Speaker 2:
0:47

Sure, you know I have developed a practice representing Bell Bondsman and studying this area of the law has become an interest for me. I have a background as an appellate attorney, so I have a background in looking at the legal issues. And you know we have this push for bell reform that started years ago. And it started in some federal cases where we were told, hey, bell is unconstitutional and so our current way we're doing bell is going to have to change. So we want to change it to this. And it turned out that everything we've been told is wrong. I mean, bell has not been held unconstitutional, it's been held constitutional and there's been people who've kind of noticed, hey, we don't really have anything to replace it with that works near as well. That's the reason why it's been around 200 years. And so we've started seeing some mayors kind of push back and say, until you have an alternative that has the same low failure to appear rate and the high level of accountability that the private sector provides, then you don't have an alternative. And so we've really kind of seen, during COVID, a lot of data come out that has shown us that this is absolutely true and that some things that have been tried, like zero bell, simple release, release without bell in New York or in Texas. Release on personal bonds has had a devastating impact on our criminal justice system. It's increased crime and it's increased violent crime. As a result of COVID, there was a DA in Yolo County in California who released a study of a comparison of people or defendants arrested on low level crimes charged released on a simple release versus released on a private surety bond and the ones released on simple release had a 200% greater chance of committing a new violent offense in the next 18 months. And so we're seeing this risk of additional crime coming all over the country where these things are being tried. And what we're really seeing is that in the area of domestic violent survivors, this has had an even more devastating effect, because you know people who are suffering or who are domestic violent survivors already have questions about whether they can trust the criminal justice system because they're being told come to us, we'll get you a restraining order and that's what you need. Well, we already know that. You know if someone is going to be someone who's going to prey on our survivors, they're not going to be too concerned about a protective order or violating it. But the problem now is with these pushes for alternatives, the push for we need to change what we're currently doing. We're actually tying the hands of judges so they cannot hold people accused of domestic violence and so they're getting arrested and immediately released, and it's coming back and making it 10 times worse. And so, you know, domestic violence survivors have no time to even think about relying upon the police or relying on the criminal justice system. They have to immediately go underground, hide, find a place to go, because the clock is ticking on them. And I think that is an area of this bad bell reform or bad bell reform failures that we're seeing in our urban areas, urban area parts of the country that we're not really talking about, the areas that we're. Our domestic violence survivors are really getting kicked really bad and almost ignored by the criminal justice system now because of the way they're being released after they're being accused of domestic violence.

Speaker 1:
4:52

And so just to clarify simple release just means that they are released without bail.

Speaker 2:
4:56

Well, that just means they're released on their own promise. So there's different, it's called different things in different parts of the country. So in California it would be released on zero bail, so you're released on a bond. That's zero dollars, it didn't cost anything. In New York, it would be released without bail, so you'd be released without a bond. Texas, you can't be released without a bond, so we would call it being released on a personal bond, because all bonds in Texas have to have an amount, but you're not paying anything for it. It's just a promise, and so all three of those can be categorized into what I call simple release. They're each one example of just simple release mechanisms where you'd pay nothing and you just get immediately released out of jail.

Speaker 1:
5:40

Now I know the timeframe probably would vary from state to state in case to case, but on average how much time would that be then from the arrest to release?

Speaker 2:
5:51

It is going to depend on where you go but, like in Texas, you have to see a magistrate within 48 hours. So if you immediately see a magistrate, if you see one within 24 hours, they immediately give you a personal bond. You just sign it and you're released. You're going to be released very quickly back into the same situation that you were, and I have an example from Harris County where Alex Guajardo was already on a personal bond and got accused, or he was arrested for domestic violence against his wife and he was arrested, taking a jail and went to before the master and was given immediately another PR bond even though he would have violated the conditions of his first one, went home, killed his wife within hours, stabbed her over 30 times in her stomach, and he did it because he said she was pregnant and he didn't want any other man to raise his child. And so he's now in jail for murder. But the criminal justice system failed his wife, caitlin and you know we've had a bill filed in the last or two sessions ago you know call the named in honor of Caitlin, caitlin's bill and you know it didn't pass, but the concepts of it were combined with another bill so that that was ultimately passed to reform the criminal justice system and the way what the parts that impacted her is. In Texas, they limited the use of personal bonds simple release mechanisms for these types of charges going forward.

Speaker 1:
7:30

Is that common where somebody could be arrested again and still be released on a simple I?

Speaker 2:
7:36

would say in the majority of Texas probably not. But the problem is in our urban areas. You know, in our urban areas, where we have high population, high crime and full jails, you know, a lot of times these assault, family violence offenses are misdemeanors. We've amended the Texas Constitution. Allow someone to be held without bail. So this is a charge. They could have been held. But since it's a misdemeanor, we have judges who say well, it's a misdemeanor, I can't hold you. And even though the Constitution says differently, they're like well, it's a misdemeanor, so I have to release them. And so in our urban areas they would have. Just, you know, in Harris County they released them because it was a misdemeanor and he was given, you know, a personal bond. The amount didn't matter because he didn't pay anything.

Speaker 1:
8:27

Okay, so talk to me a little bit about the misdemeanor thing like why would that not be a higher charge?

Speaker 2:
8:35

You know that's okay. So the part of the politics of these bail reform failures is the push to say we should focus on violent offenses and we should focus on felonies. And so as a result of that, we're saying well, misdemeanors are less important. Like, harris County was sued in federal court, they entered into a settlement and so they agreed to give everyone that was arrested on a misdemeanor a hundred dollar personal bond unless you were charged with one of seven offenses. Now, a hundred dollar personal bond, you're still not paying anything and that's just the amount tied to the bond. And so, as a result, crime has increased. Failure to appears have increased. You know there's been. I would say, according to Harris County court watch, there's an 80% failure to appear rate on misdemeanors on average over a two year period in Harris County. You think, oh, that can't be correct, that's got to be absolutely wrong. That's just a. That's a jaw dropping number. I did a podcast with a DA in California and he said we do the same thing for all misdemeanors in California and our failure to appear rate in all misdemeanors in California is 80%. So I mean what we're learning is when you do these simple release mechanisms, you are going to have a high failure to appear rate. And when you have a high failure to appear rate, that creates chaos, because every week we're adding the same number of cases to the criminal justice system in our urban areas on average. And so you know, if you have a thousand cases supposed to appear, 80% don't show, then if you just push them back a week, then now you have to have 1800 people show up, and if 80% don't show, then it just compounds week after week, and so that's how it creates chaos. Chaos puts pressure on the courts to decriminalize, because they have to dismiss cases to keep from the criminal justice system collapsing, and so it's just a snowball where you have chaos, de facto decriminalization and dismissal of cases.

Speaker 1:
10:39

When they don't show how? How ambitious is the legal system in trying to track these people down?

Speaker 2:
10:46

In our urban areas. Okay, so how ambitious are they? They're not ambitious at all, because when they're released on a personal bond, they issue a warrant, but the warrants going to go down to the warrant division and join the tens of thousands of other warrants waiting to be held, and so that usually means that either have to come back on their own oh I just forgot or in these areas, this area, they had to commit another crime to be brought back into the judicial system. So, like with Alex Guajardo, the way he came back after his was by killing his wife. That's how he came back into the criminal justice system. And so you've got, I mean, so there's not, there's not anybody looking. That's the big difference between the private industry and the simple release mechanisms, because the private industry has is given an incentive If your person doesn't come to court, you're going to pay the county a certain amount of money, unless you get them back very quickly. And so we, if we post a bond and someone to show we're looking for them, we're encouraging them to come back, or we're searching for them and calling the police and saying they're right there, please go arrest them, because we can't arrest in in Texas, and so it's a very different system. When the private surety industry posts a bond versus, they get one of these simple release mechanisms. Okay.

Speaker 1:
12:05

Okay, now I'm kind of jumping back a little bit, but you have mentioned that this happened because it was deemed unconstitutional. So what? What was it that? Well, ok, so it wasn't deemed.

Speaker 2:
12:17

It's just the people pushing for reform were arguing that it was unconstitutional and we didn't have a case on point. And so since then we've had two courts of appeals, the 11th and the 5th Circuit. Both hold that the private surety bail system is constitutional. And the original case that caused all this hoopla in Houston, in Harris County, was called O'Donnell versus Harris County, and they ultimately settled it because well, they settled it for multiple reasons. But the problem is the the courts of appeals has since then reversed O'Donnell and the 5th Circuit has ultimately stated that it should have never been filed in federal court. So it's been reversed multiple times. The courts have said it should have never been filed. But Harris County is still following the O'Donnell settlement, which is requiring them to do simple, release personal bonds for simple, essentially all misdemeanors with the exception of seven charges. But when you go to court you're still going to get a personal bond by and large, and the problem is they can't hold anybody accountable because of all the chaos. So you'll have people on misdemeanor bonds. I mean, several years ago you'd have somebody that had miscourt six, seven, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen times. And they miscourt, get re arrested, get a new personal bond, get out, don't come to court, get re arrested, get a new personal bond and it's just an endless cycle. You can see the police aren't all there's. There's been all the time arresting and releasing, arresting and releasing. Nobody's being held accountable. And it was because of this argument that hey bells unconstitutional. Well, now we know it's not. Now we know it is. It is constitutional. And in the 5th Circuit even went further recently and said these types of cases can't be filed in in federal court, in in Texas and or the 5th Circuit. And I think that was their message of we're tired of this, we're not going to, we're not going to regulate ongoing state court, criminal court cases. We want, we're not going to get in the way of that, we're going to allow the state to regulate or decide how they want to handle criminals in their state and so. But we're still suffering the consequences of this O'Donnell opinion because nobody in Harris County will go to the 5th Circuit and say or go to the trial court and say you need to vacate this Because the 5th Circuit says it shouldn't have been filed.

Speaker 1:
14:39

So do you think that's the ultimate answer? Is giving the power to the states, or what do you?

Speaker 2:
14:44

think. Well bail is generally run by the state. So that's why we have different systems and every state, every state can do their own. I mean we kind of have two criminal justice systems at the same time. We have each state has their own, and then the federal system overlays on top of everything. So if you're charged with a federal crime, you're going to go through that system. If you're charged with a state crime, you're going to go through whatever system each state has, and you could be charged with one, or you know a state crime and a federal crime and you could go through both systems. And we do see that sometimes, especially when the politics of the state, like in the urban cities, won't allow the punishment sought, so they'll follow it as a federal charge instead of a state charge. You know what the solution, you know what we're really doing is we're tying the hands of judges, so, and we're doing it in the argument. The argument is we need to protect the poor, so, and we want to make sure the judges don't take advantage of the poor and so. But in tying the hands of judges to protect the poor, we're preventing the judges, we're doing the same thing. They can't, so they can't address organized crime. They can't address career criminals and they can't address gangs, and we're starting to see that change and needs to change more quickly. But I don't think. I think the answer is we need to give judges more discretion, not less, so they'll have the tools that they need to address these types of situations. So when someone's brought before them on a domestic violence charge, they can say I'm not putting the rights of the defendant over the right to the victim, because we were coming out of this period where that's what we've done. I mean, you know, people don't realize that 50% of all murder victims in the United States are young black males and by and large the murderers are from the same group and somehow we got turned around and we started favoring young black male Murderers over victims and we need to turn that back and straighten it out.

Speaker 1:
16:54

I know you've kind of talked with different people throughout different states. Do you feel like it's kind of the same general opinion as you're saying right now throughout the country?

Speaker 2:
17:05

No, I think in our urban areas we have the politics that's just crazy right now, and so I think in those areas you're going to have a continual push for we need to be more lenient for defendants. You're starting to see it change. It's coming from the mayors first, because they're starting to see businesses close, so their tax bases going down. Their commercial property values are going down. That's affecting their property taxes. You're going to see more and more defaults of commercial buildings, and so you're starting to see mayors say we've got to stop this. I mean San Francisco, I think in the last two days, just passed a referendum allowing more police activities that you would have thought they would never have in San Francisco anymore. It's a direct reaction to these soft on crime policies with rising crime, and so you're going to see more of that. In many ways, I think we're repeating the cycle that we had in the 60s, where we felt more safe, so we became more lenient on crime. We started having more crime as a result, and so we started fighting over how to respond to that. Our friends on one side of the spectrum said no, we're not going to do it, we're going to pose anything, and ultimately we had a backlash in the 80s and Reagan was elected with a strong fight on crime policy and it carried through with even Clinton. Clinton was a strong advocate for tough on crime and we enacted these three strikes, you're out type policies and we went building jails. And I think we're on track to repeat those same, that same cycle. If we're not, if the, if our friends are not careful and they don't realize, hey, this isn't working, so we need to try something else, then that's where we're headed, because what we're doing right now cannot continue. It's not sustainable.

Speaker 1:
19:07

Do you think we're heading in that direction where both federal and state is looking at needing to make some changes?

Speaker 2:
19:15

Well, you know, we're always looking at how we can improve the criminal justice system and so I think you know, any session we're in Texas we're looking on ways to improve it, but we're also fighting pushes to destroy it. I think we're going to continue with push groups pushing to go backwards. But I, like I said, you know there was a news nation town hall on crime and there was a mayor there who said you know, until you have an alternative to the private industry that has the same low fair to appear rate, so more people go to court, and the same high level of camp, but you don't have an alternative. And that's what we are. That's where we are right now. We're trying alternatives that are not tested. We have no resources. It says the work and they say, oh, they're working. And when they don't they say, oh, we need more time. It just seems more time and that's the reason why you know it just hasn't shown that it's working. But if their theory is we can reduce people from the number of people in prison and that will make us safer, then you know that they're talking out of both sides of their mouth, because Common Sense says you release more criminals from jail, from prison, you're going to have more crime, and I would say everything that we've seen supports that, so what?

Speaker 1:
20:30

can be done or what should be done. Is there anything that the average citizen can do? Yes, and you know.

Speaker 2:
20:37

I think probably the strongest voice in this area is domestic violence survivors. They can always I mean, you know when we so what can they do? They can go to our website, pbtxcom. They can join our newsletter, they can join our email groups, and so we, when we see something happen at the legislature, we'll do a call to actions and and sometimes you know the legislature, they know me, they know some of us, but the people who are survivors of these situations are much more powerful and have a very compelling story that I promise you our legislators will be they'll listen very carefully and they want to protect these groups. I mean, who doesn't want to protect people who are victims of domestic violence? The problem is no one's pointing out to our legislature that these pushes for reform are having devastating effects on this segment, just like anything else. You know we're saying what we're doing these things to help minorities, but what nobody is pointing out is when crime increases, it disproportionately increases in our minority communities. So they say they're wanting to help these groups and these reforms end up hurting those very groups the most, and nobody realizes that.

Speaker 1:
22:05

Right, because the offenders can then just be out there reoffending, even perhaps not with the same original victim, but moving on to new victims.

Speaker 2:
22:13

Well, crime gets committed usually within the same racial group. So if crime is going to increase, it's going to increase disproportionately in our minority communities.

Speaker 1:
22:22

Now you're in Texas. How would or who would somebody in different states try to look for to talk to about this?

Speaker 2:
22:31

Well, I think you know we're. I think we're a good resource in Texas and because we usually know what's going on in other states. But I think by by just kind of coming to our group, you can find out what's going on in other states. We do monitor what's going on in other states, but you know, I think it is very difficult. I think what we really need is domestic violence survivors to become more active in their state legislature so they'll know what's going on and so they'll be reaching out to us as a resource that we can help them, instead of us trying to point y'all or point people into the proper area when we're you know we're in Texas. If something's going on in Ohio, it's going to be less likely that we know. And so what we? The perfect thing would be we're a resource for people in Ohio when something like this is is taking place. So I think probably the best resource right now would be stay current on what's going on at your legislature, watch the news and if you start to see something, reach out will be. We can tell you what's going on and we can figure it out really quickly.

Speaker 1:
23:37

Now you also have a podcast. Do you go over this kind of information in the podcast?

Speaker 2:
23:42

I do. So we have our own podcast called the bell post and it, if you, you can go to PBTXcom and you can click on podcast, or you can just go to thebellpostcom and it is a criminal justice podcast. So it is just talking about criminal justice issues. It is intended to be a resource to legislators and the public. So, like New Jersey did bell reform and we call it the New Jersey plan. If you know, we did people say, oh, texas should adopt the New Jersey plan. Well, nobody knew what the New Jersey plan was. So we did an episode, or I did an episode on what the New Jersey plan is. And once you talk, look at it and you go well, that's not really a good fit for Texas. And also, when you talk about how expensive it was and how they did a tax increase statewide tax increase just for that, and then they went broke. And then you find, figure out, well, no other state has proposed the New Jersey plan because of the cost. And so a lot of the reforms we see are a reaction to the New Jersey plan. They want to do reforms but they don't want to pay for it. So that's how we get simple release mechanisms. Which people are just being released. Nobody is supervising them because the states can't afford to supervise them. We're getting we're making it a worse system than it was, because we're getting rid of the private industry that provides the highest level of supervision, and we're just getting rid of them in some areas, especially in our urban areas. And so what we're seeing is we're seeing where the criminal justice system is getting damaged in the, in the, in the name of hey, we're going to make it better and but we're replacing it with something that we have no study, nothing that says it works, and so far, everything shows exactly what we said it would happen is it was a failure, and you have high sky, high failure to appear, and as criminals see that and see that people aren't being held accountable, they see that as a green light to commit more crime. And the groups that are stepping in to those voids is, you know, organized crime, gangs and career criminals, and they're making millions, of millions of dollars out of it. We know that because stores are closing, they can't withstand $25,000 a day in shoplifting. Well, that month, that's where these groups are stepping into the void and making money hand over fist, and no one seems to be willing to even address that in some of our urban areas today. I mean they're just like oh well, it's target's fault that they're closing their stores. It's target's fault. No, if you can't provide a safe place, if you cannot provide public safety for me to conduct my business, don't be shocked if I close my business.

Speaker 1:
26:19

I always tell these stories about domestic violence and kind of conclude with something needs to be done and I'm not that person to figure out what can be done and this there are so many different facets and parts to domestic violence and I think this is a huge one and I think this can definitely do something to help improve or lower the statistics of reoffense and domestic violence.

Speaker 2:
26:46

Well, if I was, going to propose, like, if you know, we had something happen in Ohio or New York and some kind of bill was voted. You asked me what should be done. We should have domestic violence survivors talking to the legislature saying we should not have simple release for domestic violence, people accused of that crime, because that gets them out very quickly and they go home and they commit murder or something almost as bad, and so you can stop it or decrease it significantly, just over the type of release being used. I mean you would think, okay, you and me, if you've got somebody released on a personal bond or a simple release versus being released on the private industry bond, and the person released just on simple release has a 200% greater chance of committing a violent offense in the next 18 months, we would say it's a no brainer. We're only going to allow very few people to be released on a simple release. But that's not where we are. The politics has overtaken it and so we have to tell our stories about how their politics are causing real harm, real damage, real tragedies, and I think once we do that, then you're going to see people like they normally do when you show a spotlight on it the bugs run and the people like sanity returns.

Speaker 1:
28:11

Absolutely, I totally agree. I think this is very helpful, very good information. Is there anything else that you want to add, or kind?

Speaker 2:
28:21

of Well. I would just look. This is an area where to survive, you kind of have to run a lot of times, and I'm sure that's the advice that they receive when you get a call, and what I would say is, once you get out and get protected, the way you can provide help. One of the ways for future people is to, when you see an opportunity to stand up and say what is going on is not right, and we'll be happy, I'll be happy to be right there with you and say I'll give you the stats, I'll give you the numbers, I'll show you how this is being done. And, like in California, they were talking about doing a statewide change to a simple release mechanism, and the Yolo County study came in and costed it. We need more of that. We just need to shine a light on these issues and bring them to our legislators so that when they're hearing from these people on the extreme fringes pushing for things that they know aren't working and saying, hey, what we're currently doing is unconstitutional, and you're like, no, it's been held constitutional, but they won't admit that they keep making the same arguments. Even if they've been overturned by courts, they still make them, and so somebody needs to call them out on that and we can absolutely help do that. But the stories of domestic violence survivors are the ones that are going to catch everybody's attention because everybody wants to help you all, but you all are having to run and hide and seek help behind the scenes because there's no faith in the criminal justice system. We've got to correct that.

Speaker 1:
30:13

Absolutely. That's kind of the common theme, I think, with any, every story, every survivor that I've talked to is the loss of faith in the judicial system and the legal system. So, thank you, let me ask you.

Speaker 2:
30:28

So is there a common trait to the abusers? I mean, are they narcissists? Are they just bullies? What is the? What is there a common trait there? Because it just seems. You know, I'm a guy, I've been married for 20 something years. I have never come close to hitting my wife or either one of my daughters. Now I've gotten really upset and I've gotten angry, but I mean, now I'm a strong Christian, but I would. I've never gotten even close. So what is it about what? What gets those situations?

Speaker 1:
31:09

That's. That's what's really interesting too, and I'm actually going to be speaking to somebody who wrote a book on the neuroscience of domestic violence and how she feels it's more of a nature versus nurture. I think it's probably a combination of both. I think there is a lot of narcissism. I think there are other mental health disorders that can contribute, but I don't think that that necessarily precludes somebody to abusing somebody else. I also don't think that it has to. You have to have a mental health disorder to do that either.

Speaker 2:
31:52

I did a podcast with a sheriff from Tarrant County. He said that 80% of the people in his jail shared three things. So one of them is no father in their life, no education and some outside influence, whether it's gangs or drugs. And so I wonder if that also has a play in this area too, because I think it's a multitude of things. If they're a narcissist, they're a narcissist, and if they're an extreme narcissist, then it's never their fault, it's always somebody else's fault. I wonder if drugs could have an impact on this. Lack of fathers who never taught them how to treat a woman, or they never learned how to treat a woman. Lack of faith? Obviously we talk about how a divorce 50% of marriage is in a divorce. If you just change it to where they attend church regularly, it goes down. The divorce rate goes way down immediately, and so I think, probably lack of faith. But I don't know. Drugs, probably it's a multitude of things. And, like you said, mental health, and I would never say, hey, other things I would say there, but for the grace of God, goes me. I mean it could have been me anytime. I mean my daughter is 25. She's not married. I pray for her future husband right now and so hoping that God will grace us with a godly man or a godly significant other. And I do that for both of my children, because she never know, I mean. And also, once you get married they can change. Because you know, the first house I ever owned, the couple that lived next to me, the wife, was in a car accident and got hooked on prescription painkillers and never really recovered from it and they ended up getting divorced and he got custody of both kids. So it's, you know, like you said, there's a multitude of causes and it's not a cookie cutter thing, but it's, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
33:53

It is very difficult to pinpoint what happens in the abuser, and it's also difficult to pinpoint if there's something within the victim that predisposes them to becoming a victim, and I don't think that that's necessarily 100% true. You can look at lower socioeconomic status or lower education rates, but there are people, myself included. I have a master's degree, I've been educated in domestic violence and I still was a victim of domestic violence.

Speaker 2:
34:25

If you don't mind me asking in your situation, what was the trigger for abuse?

Speaker 1:
34:31

I still cannot figure that out myself. I think that initially I excused a lot of behaviors or ignored the red flags that were there. And I think as time went on there was alcohol. Alcohol was definitely a factor that made it worse, but it was still there and I'm not really sure for the longest time I was looking at myself and what I had done to bring on the abuse, or bring on. It started with, you know, verbal, emotional, psychological initially, and then it escalated to physical and sexual violence. But I looked at myself like what did I do? How do I change my behavior? And I think that's a lot of that's a very common thing that victims think is what did I do? Because everything was great before. But I think another common trait within the abusers is they know how to manipulate. So they do this technique of love bombing and making you think everything's wonderful, and that's what kind of sucks you in, and then their true colors show. So it's hard to say. I think an important thing is to recognize your own personal boundaries and what you know is okay and what's not okay. But you have to recognize different red flags and I know there's a. There are blurred lines between what is a normal concern versus a blatant red flag. The terrorist behavior I need to remove myself. And another trap I think that victims fall into is you end up in this relationship kind of down the road. You don't realize that you're in an abusive relationship until all of a sudden you do recognize it and then now you don't know how to get out of it. And then that's where the fear of is a legal system really going to protect me if I go about this route, if I contact the police, if I file a report, if I have this individual arrested, if I get a restraining order, what is it going to do to truly protect me? So I think that's what one of the problems is the victims feel stuck and they don't know how to get out once they realize they should.

Speaker 2:
36:48

What I mean. Okay, here's my two cents. So when I came to Tyler where I live, you know, 20, 30 years ago, I joined a church and it was a very big church and so I was in the singles department and then years later I met my wife and we got married and we were in the young married couples department and so we never had anything to do with the single department anymore. We were in the young married couples department and then when we started having kids, we moved to the newly kids department, you know, married with kids department, and that can be really isolating at times, where it's just you and your spouse or your spouse and your kids. And you know my wife is. We've been together for a long time and I think one of the reasons why is because we have common religious backgrounds, but we also, I think, to a certain amount, we have manipulation histories as well, and I think one of the things that we kind of kind of made agreement unspoken, as we don't manipulate each other and we also stand up for each other. I mean, you know, like you know, when you have teenage kids and you're 13 years old, as being a 13 year old I mean, I'm the first one to stand up for my wife you do not talk to your mother like that and my wife is the first one to stand up for me. And I think sometimes, you know it's very difficult in those situations to say you crossed the line on the way you're treating me, Stop it, Don't do it again. And then it gets to where they do it. And so then that may you know you start questioning Well, is I mean? I don't even know. I mean, I mean I think it's, but I think it's very important to say, hey, that's not acceptable, Don't do that, Please stop that, because but I'm not an expert and I don't have any expertise on this. All I know is that's wrong, it shouldn't happen. And we you know people who are suffering through that need to be able to rely on the criminal justice system, and bell reform failures are making it where. There's no way you can rely upon them, you have to run, you just, you have no choice.

Speaker 1:
39:02

And that's the difficult part too, because you have victims who have children or they have pets or they have other things that they're trying to get together, and it's it takes time to get all of that together. They can be as prepared as they possibly can to run when it's time to run, but, like you said, if the abuser is released immediately and comes straight home, that person may not be out of the house yet, and that's where the problem can come up.

Speaker 2:
39:30

Well, it becomes, it escalates, you know, in taxes, like where I live. We've had the courthouse. We've had some shootings at the courthouse it's a long time ago now but the shootings are not criminal cases, they're always family law cases. And you know, we've had one situation where there was a court of appeals argument in Fort Worth and someone brought in a gun and started shooting up the judges on this panel three judge panel. That was a family law case. So you know, our family disputes are much more susceptible to violence than anything else. I think Because you're you know, I always took. One of the reasons why I don't have never done divorce law is because I've always heard that when you're going through divorce, you get, go through a crazy process, you go through a crazy period. Well, I think when all these things are happening, that's a very unsettling time. And if you're dealing with an accuser or you have your perpetrator is unstable to begin with, and then you add on top of that all the stress of this and suddenly their life is as they saw it, or maybe as they measured. It is now over. They're not willing for that to happen and that's a problem.

Speaker 1:
40:44

Absolutely. That's probably, I think, statistically the most dangerous part of an abusive relationship is when the victim chooses to leave or is in the process of leaving, and it is because the perpetrator is potentially facing criminal charges. They have the realistic possibility of losing their children or their home, or even their career, depending on what that is, and then they also realize that they're losing their power over the victim, and I think that's a huge part that plays into it too. That's interesting, though, that family, the family cases have that higher incidence of violence at the courts in the courts, that's crazy.

Speaker 2:
41:27

Yeah, we had a shooting at the courthouse here in Smith County years ago and it was a family issue. It was not a criminal case. It wasn't something about somebody trying to get them out of the jail. It was dealing with a family situation, a divorce or a child custody, I don't remember, but it was a family issue.

Speaker 1:
41:47

Yeah, either way, that's a very difficult time.

Speaker 2:
41:50

When you're dealing with issues, also when you're dealing with domestic violence survivors, you know how do you keep these people from seeing their children. They shouldn't be around the children. They shouldn't be around the children, but that creates a whole other level of angst and stress.

Speaker 1:
42:09

And, yes, and again it's that lack of faith in the judicial system that do I fight for child custody, do I actually go to a hearing, do I have this trial, or do we try to settle the parent plan outside of court? And maybe I have to give some time to my abuser. But if I don't do that then it's ultimately kind of just up to the judge. Like the judge can say, you know what, whatever 50-50. Or you know, let me give more time over to that person versus you. It's a very scary time, especially when you're coming out of this relationship and now you're also faced with I have to do everything on my own. We were supposed to be have this partnership and now I have to form this life with my kids and try to normalize our lives. In this different situation, Victims also can be financially abused. So they come out, they have zero credit or, you know, no monetary background to call upon.

Speaker 2:
43:20

Look at Tina Turner. She left her husband and she walked away. She gave him everything to get away.

Speaker 1:
43:27

She did and I actually I did an episode on her. She was cleaning houses to try to make a living and she was on food stamps for a time period as well. But I kind of think if she can do it, if she could do all that, and then she became this icon of Tina Turner.

Speaker 2:
43:45

Well, isn't that the lesson, or the lesson from that is you may go through hell for a time, but it's only hell for a time. There is a light at the end of this tunnel and you will get through it, but you need support. You can't do it on your own, and it's okay to say you can't do it on your own. It's kind of like going through cancer. I have a friend going through cancer right now and I call her every couple of days to check on her because I just want her to know I'm supporting her, and I think this really is a good analogy for going through and surviving these situations. You need support. You need support to get you back on your feet, to get you through the dark time and to start over, because that's really what you're doing.

Speaker 1:
44:30

Yes, and you need to know who you can count on and hope that the processes that are in place, that are designed to help you, will come through and actually really do help you.

Speaker 2:
44:43

One of the questions that I've thought about recently is you know, it must be really difficult when you go through one of these situations and you get back on your feet. How do you ever take a chance on trusting another partner?

Speaker 1:
45:00

That's a very interesting point. A lot of domestic violence victims actually end up in another abusive relationship, but I think it is important for each domestic violence victim to really do some self-reflection.

Speaker 2:
45:16

You know, I was always taught that people can show their best side for a time, a short time, that they can't do it for a long time. So if you're seeing somebody for a year, for four seasons, it's more difficult for them to hide it. You know, I used to say that my wife and I were the opposites, you know, opposites of track. She's very much an introvert and I'm more of an extrovert. But I really don't think that. I think what brought us together was our common religious beliefs and when we've, you know, had stressors in our relationship. One of our daughters had a bone marrow transplant when she was five and she's now in college doing well. But I mean, you know, we leaned much more heavily on our faith. And so I mean I look at what are our. I mean I don't think there's an easy answer here. I mean there's just not a cookie cutter answer. And so I mean I would just say we have to find our. What is it that is common between us and is that healthy? And if it's not, maybe it's not. I mean, I've always, you know, I've always refused to date people who didn't attend my church. And then my wife makes a joke and saying, yeah, but after you dated all of them, then you would date somebody that didn't attend a church but you, so you would, you kind of change the rule a little bit. And then when we met she was a different faith and so the whole time we dated we'd go one church, one Sunday to her church, the next Sunday to mine, and we did that all the way through our dating relationship. We got married to her church. We did that while we were married and when my wife came to me and said she was ready to start a family, I said, well, you know, we can't start, we can't have a family until we're all, we're both members of the same church family. And so we made a commitment to find a common church that we could call home. And then we started a family. And you know, I like to say, with what we've been through, you know, life is not, you know, a kitty ride. It is not, it's not made for the soft of heart. It is the scariest ride at six flags you can get on and it may even make you throw up, and that's the reality. And sometimes you just have to survive the really, really bad times. And I wouldn't have done it without my faith and I still could have been. You know, I still could not have survived some of those things. All you had to do is add a couple of things and I wouldn't have survived. I wouldn't have survived because life is tough at times. And so I would say you know, that's really terrible, terrible advice, isn't it? But I think that's probably the most accurate is life is a scary ride. We have to survive it, and when you get into a point that's get too scary, you got to get off that ride and get on a different one. And if that means you have to go run and hide and plan and get as much support as you can for a period of time, because you can't rely upon law enforcement because of these bell reform failures, you will get through it, you will readjust and you will flourish. I mean, some of the best pieces of advice I ever heard was you know, this young girl was kidnapped and she was kidnapped for a couple of years, living with this homeless guy and his significant other, and they just abused the crap out of her. And when she was finally found, her mother said told her do not let this guy steal your joy. The best punishment you can give to this guy is be happy and joyful, and she's since gotten married, started a family, and she speaks out on. The best advice she got was from her mother, saying don't let this guy steal your joy.

Speaker 1:
49:23

And I think that's amazing advice, because that's what they have this, this control, and the more you let them have this control over you, even if you're out of the relationship, the more you let them weigh you down emotionally. They're still winning, but if you go and you don't let them affect you and you live this, you go and forge forward and live this amazing life of just feeling confident and happy. That's everything. They've lost. Everything, then. Yes.

Speaker 2:
49:59

I agree, I agree, and that's probably the best punishment you can give them is you are joyful and you are alive.

Speaker 1:
50:08

I completely agree. What a great conversation.

Speaker 2:
50:11

Yeah, thank you for having me. I've enjoyed this so much and we need to have more of these types of conversations and we need to get this area of our society fixed. Yes, I agree.

Speaker 1:
50:25

I agree. Well, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing and I know we're going to have I'll have it a link with your bio on the website, which will can point everybody to the different variety of things that you mentioned earlier. So you're going to be a great resource, I think, for all of us.

Speaker 2:
50:45

Well, thank you, I look forward to it.

Speaker 1:
50:48

All right. Well, I appreciate you coming on again and have a great day. All right, Thank you, bye, okay.